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  #1  
Old 11-24-2006, 09:15 PM
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ianmatthews ianmatthews is offline
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The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

On the heels of 215 dead just yesterday, today there's this:

Quote:
BAGHDAD, Iraq --Shiite militiamen grabbed six Sunnis as they left Friday worship services, doused them with kerosene and burned them alive near Iraqi soldiers who did not intervene, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said.
Nov 22, CNN:
Quote:
More than 140 bodies have been found dumped across Baghdad over the past three days, police said Wednesday.

Police said 52 bullet-riddled bodies were found Wednesday, with 20 of them blindfolded, tied up and possibly tortured.

Police also discovered 29 bodies on Tuesday and 60 on Monday.
Three days, at least 360 bodies.

Can we call this thing a civil war yet?



Last edited by ianmatthews : 11-24-2006 at 09:22 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-24-2006, 10:13 PM
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borisf96 borisf96 is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Yes, we can



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  #3  
Old 11-24-2006, 10:40 PM
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by borisf96
Yes, we can
The Iraqi's certainly know this.
But Fox news, Bush and the neo-cons don't have a clue.

September 29, 2006
Poll Says Most Iraqis Want U.S. Out
By REUTERS

WASHINGTON, Sept. 28 — About three-quarters of Iraqis believe that American forces are provoking more conflict than they are preventing in Iraq and that they should be withdrawn within a year, according to a poll conducted by the Program on International Policy Attitudes, a group from the University of Maryland.

The poll of 1,150 people, conducted Sept. 1 to 4, had a margin of error of plus or minus three percentage points. It found growing support for attacks against American-led forces, with a majority of Iraqis now favoring them.

The poll was released Wednesday, a day after President Bush declassified portions of a national intelligence report that asserted the Iraq war had become a “cause célèbre” that was breeding deep resentment in the Muslim world and helping Islamist militants cultivate supporters.

The poll found that 78 percent of Iraqis believe that the American military presence causes more conflict than it prevents, including 97 percent of Sunnis, 82 percent of Shiites and 41 percent of Kurds.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/29/wo...gewanted=print

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  #4  
Old 11-24-2006, 11:21 PM
Ronald Ronald is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmatthews
On the heels of 215 dead just yesterday, today there's this:

Nov 22, CNN:

Three days, at least 360 bodies.

Can we call this thing a civil war yet?
I think history can serve as an excellent compass for us in this situation, though I am not that familiar with related aspects of it. I remember the war between the Hutus and Tutsis that wound up killing 1 million citizens as a result of the U.N. suddenly pulling out. There was also the civil war between Pakistan and India, between Hindus and Muslims, once British rule had left.

I do not know what to do about the Sunni-Shia conflict, but I do believe that we can look to past successes for the answer. I do not believe it is a hopeless problem.

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  #5  
Old 11-25-2006, 02:46 AM
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ianmatthews ianmatthews is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald
I think history can serve as an excellent compass for us in this situation, though I am not that familiar with related aspects of it. I remember the war between the Hutus and Tutsis that wound up killing 1 million citizens as a result of the U.N. suddenly pulling out. There was also the civil war between Pakistan and India, between Hindus and Muslims, once British rule had left.

I do not know what to do about the Sunni-Shia conflict, but I do believe that we can look to past successes for the answer. I do not believe it is a hopeless problem.
I think the first step is realizing that Iraq no longer exists, and work from there. We broke it, it's just a matter of admitting it. It can now, at best, be three separate countries or states practically, if not legitimately, absorbed by Iran and Syria.

At worst, complete civil war and mayhem. Hrm...
That's about all there is left.

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  #6  
Old 11-25-2006, 05:31 AM
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

I think history will virtually ignore this entire episode. The exchange rate between a maniacal dictator and civil unrest between Islamic factions is more or less a wash. We have lost less than 5 percent of the number we lost in Vietnam. The similarities between these two conflicts will be limited to the horrific results of weakness in wartime tactics. The Khmer would have had no chance to rise had we simply destroyed Hanoi. The first time one of these scumbags in Iraq hid out in a mosque and we did not obliterate it was when it began to go wrong. That was when the terrorists knew that the inherent weakness in American political culture(liberals) would eventually cede the attrition advantage to them.

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  #7  
Old 11-25-2006, 05:49 AM
Ronald Ronald is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by pwrone
I think history will virtually ignore this entire episode. The exchange rate between a maniacal dictator and civil unrest between Islamic factions is more or less a wash. We have lost less than 5 percent of the number we lost in Vietnam. The similarities between these two conflicts will be limited to the horrific results of weakness in wartime tactics. The Khmer would have had no chance to rise had we simply destroyed Hanoi. The first time one of these scumbags in Iraq hid out in a mosque and we did not obliterate it was when it began to go wrong. That was when the terrorists knew that the inherent weakness in American political culture(liberals) would eventually cede the attrition advantage to them.
I agree. If we had just dropped a hydrogen bomb on the whole middle east, this wouldn't be happening. :rolleyes:

Think harder, pwrone. This civil war is a problem. Though it's not the U.S. responsibility to prevent it, I had a crazy idea earlier - de-segregation. That worked for blacks and whites in America. I'm not kidding. I'm not sure if it would work with Sunnis and Shiites (and truth be told, I know very little about the two), but that's the best (and only) idea I've got.

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  #8  
Old 11-25-2006, 05:51 AM
Ronald Ronald is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmatthews
I think the first step is realizing that Iraq no longer exists, and work from there. We broke it, it's just a matter of admitting it. It can now, at best, be three separate countries or states practically, if not legitimately, absorbed by Iran and Syria.

At worst, complete civil war and mayhem. Hrm...
That's about all there is left.
"We broke it"? You mean by removing the genocidal dictator that had oppressed the Shiites? That's breaking it? You prefer it "unbroken"? I don't want to insult anyone, but... ugh... ... this is so stupid.

Hey, if that's "about all there is left", just nuke the place. Nothing left but senseless violence. It's unfixable. The United States of America is incapable of fixing this. They can't do it. They're just too stupid. Oh, they can land on the moon and invent the internet, but this, this is unfixable.

How do Democrats win elections on that kind of campaigning? Ian almost sounds happy this happening, happy this "can't be fixed". That's what's great about these people killing each other. We can blame Bush for it! Everybody join in!


Last edited by Ronald : 11-25-2006 at 05:57 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-25-2006, 11:56 AM
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ianmatthews ianmatthews is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald
"We broke it"? You mean by removing the genocidal dictator that had oppressed the Shiites? That's breaking it? You prefer it "unbroken"? I don't want to insult anyone, but... ugh... ... this is so stupid.

Hey, if that's "about all there is left", just nuke the place. Nothing left but senseless violence. It's unfixable. The United States of America is incapable of fixing this. They can't do it. They're just too stupid. Oh, they can land on the moon and invent the internet, but this, this is unfixable.

How do Democrats win elections on that kind of campaigning? Ian almost sounds happy this happening, happy this "can't be fixed". That's what's great about these people killing each other. We can blame Bush for it! Everybody join in!
Um, nuke it? That's insane. What are you, frankg?

It's not about America being "stupid", it's about it NOT BEING POSSIBLE. We absolutely have to change our goals in order to get out, ever. Sorry, but you're putting all kinds of crazy straw-men ideas in my head that weren't even there. I AM NOT A DEMOCRAT, and I don't recall the Dems being this upfront and honest about what the situation really is. They're almost as bad as the Republicans when it comes to being totally blind to the realities in Iraq.

The first step is admitting there is a problem, that Iraq is no more.

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  #10  
Old 11-25-2006, 01:03 PM
Ronald Ronald is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmatthews
Um, nuke it? That's insane. What are you, frankg?

It's not about America being "stupid", it's about it NOT BEING POSSIBLE. We absolutely have to change our goals in order to get out, ever. Sorry, but you're putting all kinds of crazy straw-men ideas in my head that weren't even there. I AM NOT A DEMOCRAT, and I don't recall the Dems being this upfront and honest about what the situation really is. They're almost as bad as the Republicans when it comes to being totally blind to the realities in Iraq.

The first step is admitting there is a problem, that Iraq is no more.
I was being sarcastic about the nuking. You said something along the lines of there being NOTHING LEFT but civil war. And going with that premise, that it's just a bunch of mindless savages, and there's nothing that can be done to stop this never ending blood bath which has become the remainder of the future of Iraq... something along those lines.

I over-read into it. I'm sorry. That couldn't be what you meant, but it seemed to literally mean that.

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  #11  
Old 11-25-2006, 01:21 PM
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ianmatthews ianmatthews is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald
I was being sarcastic about the nuking. You said something along the lines of there being NOTHING LEFT but civil war. And going with that premise, that it's just a bunch of mindless savages, and there's nothing that can be done to stop this never ending blood bath which has become the remainder of the future of Iraq... something along those lines.

I over-read into it. I'm sorry. That couldn't be what you meant, but it seemed to literally mean that.
It's okay, I kind of knew it was sarcastic, but I wanted to allay the fear that by acknowleding that because it is a civil war, and because we cannot fix it and keep it as Iraq, that there possibly cannot be a solution. There are still solutions, it's just going to take a long time to acknowledge the realities, because it involves bringing in Iran and Syria on a diplomatic level, and offering them power in the region.

That's not saying I want that, that's just saying that it seems like the only option. It's a testament to how incredibly awful the strategy and incompetence of the Iraq War is in execution, when the only alternative to staying there and keeping Iran out is to let Iran in. How many more soldiers have to stay there to defend a broken policy? Does this have to end with people escpaing via helicopter from the top of an embassy?

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  #12  
Old 11-25-2006, 10:01 PM
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ianmatthews ianmatthews is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Let me try to put it in language I think anybody could understand. I'm not saying one side is stupid, just that we're often speaking different languages:

A very wealthy man can keep pouring money into a failed business venture forever. So, if he chooses to use his vast wealth to paper over his business failure, he can say pretty much the same thing: The keys to victory are in my hands. The only way this venture can fail is if I lose my nerve and stop investing.

But of course this is only the very questionable advantage of the very rich and the very powerful: the ability to fund or prop up denial indefinitely.

And so it is with the president and whoever is still buying into his arguments. If all reality can be denied, then there really is only one way you can be defeated: when you yourself say you've been defeated.

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  #13  
Old 11-25-2006, 11:11 PM
Ronald Ronald is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmatthews
Let me try to put it in language I think anybody could understand. I'm not saying one side is stupid, just that we're often speaking different languages:

A very wealthy man can keep pouring money into a failed business venture forever. So, if he chooses to use his vast wealth to paper over his business failure, he can say pretty much the same thing: The keys to victory are in my hands. The only way this venture can fail is if I lose my nerve and stop investing.

But of course this is only the very questionable advantage of the very rich and the very powerful: the ability to fund or prop up denial indefinitely.

And so it is with the president and whoever is still buying into his arguments. If all reality can be denied, then there really is only one way you can be defeated: when you yourself say you've been defeated.
That's very sensible.

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  #14  
Old 11-27-2006, 03:44 AM
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

It is a Holy War against Radical Islam(moon god worshippers), and The muslims are determined to conquer the world for allah, the moon god...This war will not end until Jesus returns and judges the Nations...God's will be done...amen

The Video shows the Pope kissing the Qu'ran, which was written by Jesuits. The Vatican and Muhammed(a devout roman catholic) cooked up Islam and made the moon god allah, the one god...allah is not the God of Abraham, allah is just the moon god, who's main symbol is the cresent moon>watch video :cool:

ROME INVENTED ISLAM TO FOOL THE ARABS

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  #15  
Old 11-27-2006, 04:45 AM
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

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Originally Posted by tony_jenn
It is a Holy War against Radical Islam(moon god worshippers), and The muslims are determined to conquer the world for allah, the moon god...This war will not end until Jesus returns and judges the Nations...God's will be done...amen

The Video shows the Pope kissing the Qu'ran, which was written by Jesuits. The Vatican and Muhammed(a devout roman catholic) cooked up Islam and made the moon god allah, the one god...allah is not the God of Abraham, allah is just the moon god, who's main symbol is the cresent moon>watch video :cool:

ROME INVENTED ISLAM TO FOOL THE ARABS
I not only found this hate spreading cartoon of yours to be offensive but also a big bunch of bs.

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  #16  
Old 11-27-2006, 05:41 AM
themathprof themathprof is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Are Muslims killing Muslims because America is in Iraq? If America leaves will their fueds cease? Please explain. I'm confused.

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  #17  
Old 11-27-2006, 02:39 PM
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franKg franKg is offline
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

Getting The News From The Enemies Mouth

Yesterday there were two incidents that I wrote about involving the use of enemy propagandists by our MSM. Now take a look at the latest "all hell is breaking loose" report on Iraq, from the AP of course:

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Gunmen broke into two Shiite homes and killed 21 men in front of their relatives in an Iraqi village, police said Saturday, as Vice President Dick Cheney sought Saudi Arabia's help in calming

Iraq after an especially violent week of sectarian violence. U.S. and Iraqi forces also killed 58 insurgents during fighting north of the capital, they said.

Baghdad remained under a 24-hour curfew two days after suspected Sunni insurgents killed 215 people in Baghdad's main Shiite district with a combination of bombs and mortars.

Another 87 people were killed or found dead in sectarian violence across Iraq on Friday. The chaos cast a shadow over the summit next week between Shiite Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and President Bush in Amman, Jordan.

[...]In Diyala province, a hotbed of Iraq's Sunni-Arab insurgency, gunmen raided two Shiite homes Friday night. The attack targeted members of the al-Sawed Shiite tribe in the village of Balad Ruz, 45 miles northeast of Baghdad, according to a police officer who spoke on condition of anonymity to protect his own security, as officials often do in the increasingly volatile province.

Earlier that day, rampaging militiamen burned and blew up four mosques and torched several homes in the capital's mostly Shia neighborhood of Hurriyah, police said. Iraqi soldiers at a nearby army post failed to intervene in the assault by suspected members of the Shiite Mahdi Army militia or subsequent attacks that killed a total of 25 Sunnis, including women and children, said police Capt. Jamil Hussein.

The U.S. military said Saturday that Iraqi soldiers securing the Hurriyah area had found only one burned mosque and could not confirm reports that six Sunni civilians had been burned to death with kerosene. As we have learned quite well over the years the enemy will try to stir the pot with doctored photo's or outright lies as Patterico documented. Now the story about those Sunni's being burned alive appears to have been a fairy tale also.

You think we will hear that this raid on two houses maybe embellished also?

I mean the only think I can take away from this report that has a ring of truth to it is the fact that the US and Iraqi forces engaged the enemy north of town killing up to 60 more of the enemy.

In Diyala, Iraqi police killed 36 insurgents and wounded dozens of others during in clashes on Saturday in different areas of the province, police said.

And U.S. and Iraqi forces killed 22 insurgents and an Iraqi civilian, and destroyed a factory being used to make roadside bombs, during several raids north of Baghdad.

During three of the coalition raids, soldiers killed 10 insurgents near the city of Taji, 12 miles north of Baghdad and home to a major U.S. air base. An Iraqi teenage boy also was killed and a pregnant Iraqi woman was wounded in the crossfire, the military said.

[...]In another area north of Baghdad, coalition forces attacked three vehicles carrying 12 insurgents, including one they were searching for because he allegedly was involved in the manufacture of car bombs, the coalition said.

But it appears that our MSM is getting the "anarchy" stories from the enemy themselves. That cannot be trusted. I mean the big story yesterday was these six burned alive and now no one can find any evidence that this happened except the word of the enemy.

How many more of these stories are embellished?

UPDATE

Doing a search via Google I began reading the stories printed about the burned six and each and every one had one thing in common. The only person stating that this incident happened was one Capt. Jamil Hussein. Every news report printed this man as the source of the information.
If you do a search for this name you come up with ten pages of pretty much the same article describing the burning six.

Trying to dig up some information on this man as we speak.

UPDATE II

Since this guys name is in every single story printed about the burning six I have to dig way down to get to older stories involving this guy.

This one from April:

In yesterday's worst violence, the bodies of six handcuffed, blindfolded and tortured men were found in the Baghdad neighborhood of Dora, said police Capt. Jamil Hussein.
This one from May:

Violence resumed Saturday as a bomb in a parked car exploded near a busy bus station in southern Baghdad, killing at least four civilians and wounding seven, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said.

[...]Elsewhere, a policeman was killed and an officer wounded when a roadside bomb exploded near their convoy in Baghdad's western district of Mansour, Razzaq said. He also said three policemen were wounded when gunmen ambushed a convoy of Interior Ministry commandos in the southern neighbourhood of al-Bayaa in the capital.

Gunmen in three speeding cars also ambushed a patrol in western Baghdad, wounding 10 people, including six policemen, and two other policemen were injured in drive-by shootings in a nearby neighbourhood, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said.
Two other policemen were injured Saturday in drive-by shootings elsewhere in western Baghdad, when gunmen in two speeding cars attacked their patrol in Amiriya neighbourhood of western Baghdad, police Capt. Jamil Hussien said.

Here is one from June:

Two explosions struck an Interior Ministry patrol and a market in the Baghdad area on Monday evening, killing at least seven people and wounding 16, police said. The first attack was a car bomb that struck an Interior Ministry patrol in western Baghdad, killing four commandos and wounding six, Capt. Jamil Hussein said. About 30 minutes later, a bomb exploded in a market in Mahmoudiya, about 20 miles south of Baghdad, killing three people and wounding 10.

July:

Gunmen also ambushed a bus in the predominantly Sunni neighborhood of Amariyah in western Baghdad, killing six passengers, including a woman, and the driver, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said.

September:

A suicide truck bomb slammed into a Baghdad police headquarters on Wednesday, killing seven and wounding at least double that many, in a deadly 24 hours that saw more than 45 killings in Iraq, including two American soldiers, authorities said.

The truck bomb attack in the southern Baghdad neighbourhood of Dora came at 07:45 as policemen were coming on duty and the blast razed the building, said captain Jamil Hussein. He said the number of casualties was expected to rise.

His name is mentioned quite a bit when Sunni's are attacked it seems.

Now all I have to go on is the earlier AP report in which Iraqi and American forces say they cannot find evidence that these six were burned alive, no proof yet that the incident didn't happen. But if it turns out that this story is a fairy tale how much more of the information given from this Capt is suspect?

UPDATE III

Here is the office press release from the military:

Contrary to recent media reporting that four mosques were burned in Hurriya, an Iraqi Army patrol investigating the area found only one mosque had been burned in the neighborhood.

Soldiers from the 6th Iraqi Army Division conducted a patrol in Hurriya Friday afternoon in response to media reports that four mosques were being burned as retaliation for the VBIED attacks in Sadr City on Thursday.

The Soldiers set up a checkpoint near the Al Muhaimen mosque at approximately 2 p.m. and found the mosque intact with no evidence of any fire at the location.

While investigating the Al Meshaheda mosque, the patrol received small arms fire from unknown insurgents. The patrol returned fire, and the insurgents broke contact and fled the area. A subsequent check of the mosque found the mosque intact with no evidence of a fire.

At approximately 3:50 p.m., a local civilian reported to the patrol that armed insurgents had set the Al-Nidaa mosque on fire by throwing a gas container into the mosque. The patrol pursued the insurgents but lost contact with them.

The Soldiers called the fire department and set up a cordon around the mosque. Local fire trucks responded to the scene and extinguished the fire at approximately 4:00 p.m. The mosque sustained smoke and fire damage in the entry way but was not destroyed.

An alleged attack on a fourth mosque remains unconfirmed. The patrol was also unable to confirm media reports that six Sunni civilians were allegedly dragged out of Friday prayers and burned to death. Neither Baghdad police nor Coalition forces have reports of any such incident.

So the Baghdad police had not received reports fo this burning either? Who in the hell is this Capt. Jamil Hussein then? Is he part of the Iraqi police or an insurgent stringer for the AP


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Last edited by franKg : 11-27-2006 at 02:55 PM.
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2006, 02:42 PM
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Re: The War that Dare Not Speak Its Name

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Um, nuke it? That's insane. What are you, frankg?
ianmatthews

Could you show me the post where I stated we should nuke Iraq?

thankyou
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