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  #19  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:21 PM
Bassdefender Bassdefender is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Ohein, regarding the commentary in your post.
Quote:
A chance to receive income from the sale of the product!
Whoever wrote that skipped the important part that came before it.
Quote:
setting up, managing, promoting a pyramid scheme where the consumers have, upon payment, a chance to receive income from, either recruiting new consumers in the system or from the sale or the use of products."
(Emphasis mine)

I have had lots of different jobs. I've never had to buy the product or pay the company in order to qualify for a check.

I'd also emphasize a line from Joecool's post:
Quote:
In fact, the actual customers, based on evidence, are the Herbalife salespeople themselves.
To me, this is very important in determining which company's are legit, and which aren't. If the majority of your sales come from people who have to buy the product in order to sell it, I see that as a giant red flag. (Think about the implication)

(Note to the usual crowd: I'm not suggesting all MLMs are pyramid schemes. If you think that's what I'm getting at, read my post again)


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  #20  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:15 PM
GeryD GeryD is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
The tools are generally ineffective and it is often just a way for upline to milk more cash from downline.
Generally? Generally, Joe, implies "for the most part" which in turn indicates the majority. Often? Do you mean "more often than not"?

Given the number of companies and different types of tools produced and sold you must have bought a lot of other people's tools or solicited a lot of professional opinions to be qualified to make that assessment. How many of mine or my uplines's tools or anyone outside of your previous business have you purchased that meet your above description?

How much do you estimate you spent on materials from other MLM's, and how did you compile and grade the results of their effectiveness?

I won't argue against there being people that gouge, that produce ineffective training materials and sometimes gouge for ineffective material but I think your statement is too extreme and is an unqualified evaluation.
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  #21  
Old 02-12-2012, 12:22 AM
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Joecool44 Joecool44 is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeryD View Post
Generally? Generally, Joe, implies "for the most part" which in turn indicates the majority. Often? Do you mean "more often than not"?

Given the number of companies and different types of tools produced and sold you must have bought a lot of other people's tools or solicited a lot of professional opinions to be qualified to make that assessment. How many of mine or my uplines's tools or anyone outside of your previous business have you purchased that meet your above description?

How much do you estimate you spent on materials from other MLM's, and how did you compile and grade the results of their effectiveness?

I won't argue against there being people that gouge, that produce ineffective training materials and sometimes gouge for ineffective material but I think your statement is too extreme and is an unqualified evaluation.
The information has been posted here more than once, showing that many of the major MLM companies have a miniscule rate of "success", often less than 2-3%. Based on that, one can conclude that tools or not, your chances of success in MLM is minimal.

In my opinion, tools just make it worse for distributors as they then end up losing more money than if they just (unsuccessfully) tried to sell MLM products.



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  #22  
Old 02-12-2012, 09:31 AM
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travelingman travelingman is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
The information has been posted here more than once, showing that many of the major MLM companies have a miniscule rate of "success"
Information has been posted here more than once showing that success is a small percentage of ANY pursuit. You simply choose not to embrace reality.

Click here and here as well.

You are a hairdresser
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  #23  
Old 02-12-2012, 02:01 PM
bsc8987 bsc8987 is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingman View Post
Information has been posted here more than once showing that success is a small percentage of ANY pursuit. You simply choose not to embrace reality.

Click here and here as well.

You are a hairdresser
You're right. Therefore, MLM companies are knowingly recruiting people that will fail. The MLM company may benefit but a lot of relationships have and are going to be destroyed.

MLM companies should be honest and tell prospects up front what the business entails instead of playing on their dreams by showing them nice houses, cars and wagging money in front of them.

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  #24  
Old 02-12-2012, 02:04 PM
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ChrisDoyle ChrisDoyle is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsc8987 View Post
You're right. Therefore, MLM companies are knowingly recruiting people that will fail. The MLM company may benefit but a lot of relationships have and are going to be destroyed.

MLM companies should be honest and tell prospects up front what the business entails instead of playing on their dreams by showing them nice houses, cars and wagging money in front of them.
Those of us who try to do it right do tell our prospects up front what the business entails, such as.... it takes hard work and learning the skills; only a small percentage will become millionaires, etc.
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The musings of joecool44:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Thise links basically had comments that looks like it waas written by Amway IBO's.
About 10 minutes later:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Learn to read you fvcking moron. I never claimed those pages were from IBO's.
And he admits to changing people's posts!
Quote:
By the way, I only change links when people make personal (unsubstantiated) attacks on me. I find it works quite effectively when I employ that tactic.

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  #25  
Old 02-12-2012, 02:12 PM
Bodhi Bodhi is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisDoyle View Post
Those of us who try to do it right do tell our prospects up front what the business entails, such as.... it takes hard work and learning the skills; only a small percentage will become millionaires, etc.
Really? What percentage of distributors became millionaires via your MLM? Who are they and how did you confirm that they became millionaires through your MLM and not some other means. How many of those alleged millionaires were given preferential placement in the pyramid (break inserts)?

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  #26  
Old 02-12-2012, 10:33 PM
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Joecool44 Joecool44 is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingman View Post
Information has been posted here more than once showing that success is a small percentage of ANY pursuit. You simply choose not to embrace reality.
So you agree that MLM has a minicsule chance of success?

Not all pursuits have such insignificant numbers of success. Your argument is a strawman to divert the subject. If someone says your MLM is a pyramid, you probably respond by saying "your job is a pyramid".


Last edited by Joecool44 : 02-12-2012 at 10:35 PM.
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  #27  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:33 AM
Bodhi Bodhi is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
SWEET.... I love it....why would a millionaire, a successful business man, entrepreneur join an MLM as a distributor???

Because it works!

Now if a millionaire, joins an MLM and earns a million dollars...does that not count?
That's a pretty feeble question. If a millionaire were to join an MLM as a distributor, it wouldn't be at the bottom of the pyramid. They would be given a break insert (preferential placement high up in the pyramid along with an existing downline), paid directly by the company to join (numerous documented examples), given the opportunity to be paid for recruitment/training meetings, and/or given sales tools franchises. This route of entry is not the same as that available to the average distributor recruited into an MLM. Nonetheless, the millionaire is paraded around on stage as an example of the success that one can achieve in MLM; yet is a distorted atypical example. This practice is blatantly deceptive.[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
Our company has been around 12 years... they started what they call the millionaires club....when folks consistently over a certain amount per month....they are offerred one million dollars for their business....by the company, to buy their organization back.... nobody has accepted it yet, they all prefer to keep building their business than opt to sell for one million.

Whether they had earned a million prior (not all had) or not, with this company, they just became a millionaire....again.
I asked you directly what percentage of distributors became millionaires as a result of working for your MLM. I asked how you were able to verify that they became millionaires in your MLM. I asked you to name them. You waffled on each and every question.

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  #28  
Old 02-13-2012, 11:07 AM
Bodhi Bodhi is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
Do you think I care for a minute what you asked?

I am not providing names of people on this site for you or anyone else without their permission. Your question is rhetorical and not to be answered.
Then it would be safe to assume that their status as millionaires is not public knowledge, which begs the question, how do you know they are in fact millionaires? I'm sure they didn't pull you aside and show you their tax returns.

Quite often the people in MLM who pretend to be millionaires are in fact facing bankruptcies and foreclosures, which is never revealed to the new recruits when these "icons of MLM" are paraded across the stage at recruitment/training meetings.

It's OK to say that you don't have answers. It's not OK to pretend that you have them and then turn around and refuse to back it up with some sort of verifiable facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
In the company I am with I don't know anyone who has been inserted from outside the company into a group. And those at the top all started at the bottom. Only people inserted, are corporate... Like any business, the corporation will hire executives from the outside and put them in the typical corporate pyramid structure, near or at the top, above all the people below who have been working diligently with hopes of promotion for years....yes we've all seen that, not just numerous times....but as the acceptable norm.
There are a lot of things you don't know; you've made that painfully obvious already. But just because you don't know of any break inserts and preferential treatment in you MLM, doesn't mean it didn't happen. It happened in every other MLM that I know of. I fail to see why yours would be any exception.

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  #29  
Old 02-13-2012, 11:37 AM
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Joecool44 Joecool44 is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
I love it....who are they...name names....how do you know....have you seen their tax statement....have you seen their list of liabilities and assets....
Yes, turning the tables, how would you know who's successful in MLM?

How would you know if they even have a net profit?

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  #30  
Old 02-13-2012, 01:44 PM
Bodhi Bodhi is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
I don't, I have repeated that to you fellows dozens of times.

You've never been satisfied with that answer, you always think I should know their expenses and profits...and know how the determine success...

I don't, I only know what my organization has told me....
Like I said before, it's perfectly acceptable to say that you don't know if there are any millionaires in your MLM. Now that we've established that you don't know the answer, don't talk about MLM millionaires anymore. Simple enough.

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  #31  
Old 02-13-2012, 01:49 PM
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Joecool44 Joecool44 is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhi View Post
Quite often the people in MLM who pretend to be millionaires are in fact facing bankruptcies and foreclosures, which is never revealed to the new recruits when these "icons of MLM" are paraded across the stage at recruitment/training meetings.
http://www.amquix.info/duncan_bankrupt.html

http://www.amquix.info/wwdb_shores.html

http://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/09...uptcy-filings/

All the while parading on stage showing off "lifestyle".

I call scam.

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  #32  
Old 02-13-2012, 02:06 PM
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Joecool44 Joecool44 is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
You mean like Donald Trump?

I worked for a developer that 'pretended' to be a millionaire... and you are correct he was faced with bankruptcy and forclosure...yes it is true, during the savings and loan collapse he lost his millions, when they forced him into bankruptcy he had 997 million dollars out in loans...and nearly a hundred million of those were signature loans uncollateralized... in the end the bankruptcy court made him sell of his high rises and land holdings and companies to pay off his debts... and only left him with his 12 million dollar home, four cars and just over 200 million dollars... I don't know how he has been able to survive.
Strawman. Donald Trump isn't an MLM distributor.

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  #33  
Old 02-13-2012, 03:24 PM
Once Upon a Time Once Upon a Time is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
No he is a man who started an MLM company and failed, he is a millionaire living the multi millionaire lifestyle who has gone into bankruptcy more than once.
Which is exactly what was being discussed.
Personally, I find your strawman arguments to be a grievous insult to the real strawman, Ray Bolger.

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  #34  
Old 02-13-2012, 04:01 PM
Bodhi Bodhi is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
Strawman. Donald Trump isn't an MLM distributor.
Exactly. No one here has argued that owning an MLM company can't be lucrative. Far from it -- I think we would all agree that it can be. But ownership of an MLM company is not the business opportunity that's being offered to the people being recruited.

Same holds true for working any job on the corporate side of MLM. Those positions are subject to minimum wage laws and other state/federal regulations that don't apply to distributors.

MLM owners may achieve huge profits; employees will at least earn minimum wage; distributors just get raped.

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  #35  
Old 02-13-2012, 05:05 PM
Bodhi Bodhi is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
This is where they all come to compare notes...those that have been involved and failed, or taken advantage of, or lost their money...and those that claim to have never taken part, never failed, never lost money....but have a library of knowledge on same that they wish to impart with the 3 foot rule like a newbie zealous MLMer who swallowed the whole koolaid jar.
You paint with a mighty broad brush. I've never participated in an MLM. I suppose that would place me in category 2 -- now if you could just explain WTF you meant with that idiotic crap about 3 foot rules, newbie zealous MLMers, and koolaid jars. Would it kill you to be coherent?

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  #36  
Old 02-13-2012, 05:50 PM
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James R James R is offline
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Re: Illegal Pyramid Scheme?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
Having actually been a distributor in three companies, and having dozens if not hundreds of distributors in many companies...
How you can skip from "dozens" to all of a sudden "hundreds" is quite impresssive.

Out of those "hundreds", what percentage lasted more than 6 months?

Here it comes....."I don't know".
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