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  #19  
Old 07-17-2006, 08:02 PM
hdmarketing's Avatar
hdmarketing hdmarketing is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchristie
LOL...Rah..rah..rah..sis "boom" ba. These filthy, degenerate war-loving, fascist Monkeys are always cheerleaders for wanton death and destruction, especially if there are plenty of innocent, civilian victims left under the smoking rubble. They've never met an atrocity, war-crime or criminal act of Zionist terror they didn't just love, especially if they think there's some good money in it.
Dchristi,
Go crawl back under your rock you foam spewing fvck face.
You need your A$$ kicked up between your sholders.

Anything that even resembles being an American you are against.

Do yourself and this country a favor.

Go fvck yourself.....



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  #20  
Old 07-17-2006, 08:17 PM
Rawb's Avatar
Rawb Rawb is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Peace force

As fighting intensifies in the Middle East, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Annan have called for the deployment of international forces.

Speaking on the sidelines of the Group of Eight summit in Russia, Blair said the only way to stop the fighting is "if we have a deployment of international forces that can stop bombardment coming into Israel."

Blair said that would stop retaliatory air strikes from Israel.

The European Union has said it is considering sending such a force to Lebanon.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Monday he would consider contributing troops to an international force, if approved by the United Nations.

During a private luncheon today at the G8 meeting in St. Petersburg, comments made by U.S. President George Bush on the conflict in the Middle East were picked up by a microphone.

Bush, who was munching on a roll, was heard telling Blair that Syria should get Hezbollah to "stop doing this ****."
He also said that U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice may go to the region soon.

Bush holds Syria and Iran responsible for supporting Hezbollah guerillas in southern Lebanon.

Syrian Vice-President Farouk al-Sharaa and Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki spoke about the conflict today.

Mottaki said a ceasefire and an exchange of hostages is feasible in the Israeli-Lebanese conflict.

"We believe that we should think of an acceptable and fair (deal) to resolve this,'' he said.

"In fact, there can be a ceasefire followed by a prisoner swap,'' he added.

Meanwhile, Western nations with citizens in Lebanon have started to act on evacuation plans.

The United States removed 21 Americans on Sunday, taking them out by military helicopter. Italian military flights removed 350, mostly Europeans.

The Canadian government has contracted three ships to sail from Cyprus to the coast of Lebanon in order to evacuate the estimated 40,000 to 50,000 Canadians who are in the country.

In related developments:

With files from CTV's Murray Oliver and reports from The Associated Press"


ha..ha, Bush sure knows how to lighten up the situation


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  #21  
Old 07-17-2006, 08:27 PM
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fragout81
I have to say that I'm intrigued at how most of what dchristie claims is unsubstantiated. All theory and using biased references.

1. Someones blog which references the following:

a. An article written by Sami Moubayed. Who is a Syrian political analyst... This is a biased source (http://www.mideastviews.com)

b. An article hosted on "uruknet.info - information from occupied iraq." Another biased source.

c. An article that explained what happened in RETALIATION for the abduction of the soldiers, not when the soldiers were actually captured.

d. A quote by former Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres: “If somebody wants to kill you and you use a deception to save your life, it’s not immoral." When you get a chance, look up "Al-Takeyya." It permits Muslims to lie and deceive "Kafirs" or "infidels" if it promotes the spreading of Islam AND the conquest of the non-Muslim world. So, barring that your claim is just not true, they can lie, and no one else can?

So. Just to get the facts straight.. I'll reference the Associated Press; an unbiased news agency. This article written by Zeina Karam, a Lebanese native (Not once in the press conference did Hizbollah say that the attack happened on Lebanon territory):

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

Here's some facts for you; the apparent disregard of UN resolutions that call for Israel to discontinue their various acts. You have seen the list have you not? There was another one recently that would have called Israel to pull out of Gaza, but of course, as usual, the US vetoes yet another resolution against Israel.

Quote:
U.S. vetoes U.N. resolution on Mideast
U.N. diplomatic team heads to 'major crisis'

Thursday, July 13, 2006; Posted: 7:14 p.m. EDT (23:14 GMT)
(CNN) -- The United States on Thursday vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution demanding Israel halt its attacks in Gaza.

The proposal also demanded that Palestinian militants release the Israeli soldier abducted June 25 in a raid in Israel and stop launching rockets at Israel from Gaza. In addition, it called on Israel to release Palestinian government officials and lawmakers it took into custody after the soldier's abduction.

Ten nations on the council voted in favor of the resolution, and four abstained.

John Bolton, U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, said that "in light of the fluid events on the ground," the United States believed the Qatar-sponsored resolution was untimely and out of date, and would have helped inflame passions in the Middle East.

As one of the five permanent members on the Security Council, the United States has veto power over resolutions.

Earlier Thursday, the United Nations called fighting between Hezbollah militants and Israel a "major crisis" and said it was sending a diplomatic team to the region.

A U.N. statement said the team will urge all parties to exercise restraint.

The three-member team first will visit Cairo to meet with Egyptian officials and consult with Arab League Foreign Ministers, who will be meeting there Saturday.

Vijay Nambiar, Alvaro de Soto and Terje Roed Larsen are also expected to travel to Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, Lebanon and Syria, with other stops added as needed.

Israel has bombed runways at civilian and military airports in Lebanon, as well as a Hezbollah-run television station in response to Wednesday's abduction of two Israeli soldiers. It also has imposed a full naval blockade on the country. Hezbollah fighters have been lobbing Katyusha rockets into northern Israel. (Full story)

Lebanese Interior Minister Ahmed Fatfat called the airport strikes a "general act of war." He said they had nothing to do with Hezbollah but were, instead, an attack against Lebanon's "economic interests," especially its tourism industry.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Wednesday said the attack and abductions were an "act of war" and said the Lebanese government would be held responsible for the soldiers' safe release.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said he is concerned that a "regional war is mounting" with Israel's military campaigns in Lebanon and Gaza, where forces were deployed after last month's capture of an Israeli soldier.

"This is not our interest and will not bring peace and stability to the region," Abbas said, referring to "this [Israeli] aggression."

Bashar Ja'afari, Syria's ambassador to the United Nations, said Thursday that Syria supports Hezbollah because it is engaging in "national resistance against foreign occupation."

Ja'afari said the roots of the current conflict go far beyond the recent escalation of tensions.

"The Arab-Israeli conflict did not start with the capture of an Israeli soldier in Gaza or two other Israeli soldiers in south Lebanon. The Arab-Israeli conflict is 60 years old, and nobody was giving any care to solving this conflict," he said. "Those who should be blamed are the Israeli policies, not the Arab policies."

Asked whether Syria has direct contact with Hezbollah, Ja'afari said, "We have been having direct contacts with everybody, except, of course, the American administration and the Israeli side."

President Bush, speaking during a trip to Germany, said that "Israel has a right to defend herself." But he warned that Israel should take care not to weaken Lebanon's government.

"The democracy of Lebanon is an important part of laying a foundation of peace in that region," Bush said.

Bush also said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad "needs to show some leadership toward peace."

Ja'afari said Damascus "is deploying a huge effort within the Arab circles ... as well as at the international level through direct contacts."

"We are doing our utmost," he said. "Saturday there will be a meeting of Arab foreign affairs ministers in Cairo to discuss the Israeli escalation. We will do our best. But, mainly speaking, those who have the upper hand with regard to the Security Council should deal with the Arab-Israeli conflict in its ... wider spectrum."

Bush said the United States was working to calm the situation.

"We've got diplomats in the region. Secretary of State [Condoleezza] Rice, who is here, is on the phone talking to her counterparts. I'll be making calls," Bush said.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said that the abduction of the soldiers was unacceptable and blamed Hezbollah for starting the crisis.

The European Union reportedly condemned the fighting and criticized Israel for using what it called "disproportionate" force. It said the blockade of Lebanon was not justified.

"Actions which are contrary to international humanitarian law can only aggravate the vicious circle of violence and retribution," the EU president said in a statement, according to Reuters.

Hezbollah is designated a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel, but the Islamic militia is a significant player in Lebanon's fractious politics. Its leader, Hassan Nasrallah, told reporters Wednesday that abducting the soldiers was "our natural, only and logical right" to win freedom for Hezbollah prisoners held by Israel.

Nasrallah said the two soldiers had been taken to a place "far, far away" and that an Israeli military campaign would not win their release.

The new fighting on Israel's northern border comes amid a two-week-old Israeli campaign in Gaza in search of Israeli army Cpl. Gilad Shalit, a soldier captured by Palestinian militants there.
It is the US that enables Israel to continue its behavior no matter what the circumstances may be. When other countries, that have a valid claim are up against this type of circumstances, what road should they take that will permit them to stand up for themselves?




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  #22  
Old 07-17-2006, 08:50 PM
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dchristie dchristie is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdmarketing
Dchristi,
Go crawl back under your rock you foam spewing fvck face.
You need your A$$ kicked up between your sholders.

Anything that even resembles being an American you are against.

Do yourself and this country a favor.

Go fvck yourself.....
Really..? What do you know about being an American, you sh1t faced, cum sucking Aussie ******? It's a good thing for you there's an Internet between us protecting you.


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  #23  
Old 07-17-2006, 09:57 PM
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hdmarketing hdmarketing is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Ohhh I am so scared....

Iggy Button Activated ;)


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  #24  
Old 07-17-2006, 10:15 PM
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Grim17 Grim17 is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchristie
Really..? What do you know about being an American, you sh1t faced, cum sucking Aussie ******? It's a good thing for you there's an Internet between us protecting you.
hdmarketing is more of an American at heart, than you will ever be in any capacity dchristie!

I can't believe the hate filled conspiracy nuts like you, who show nothing but contempt for America, it's government and it's allies on a 24 hour basis, actually have the nerve to define themselves as being a loyal or patriotic "Americans."

dchristie, you are now, and I expect will always be, an enemy of the United States of America. You also sir, represent the most disgusting kind of enemy to America, because you are living among us. You use the freedoms that has made this country great, to try and destroy her with.

You just proved that point, beyond the shadow of any doubt by posting the enemy propaganda that started this thread. Your post claimed as a FACT two separate times, that those Israeli soldiers were captured on the "LEBANESE SIDE OF BORDER", thus explaining the title you chose for this thread "ISRAEL STARTED IT"

When hdmarketing exposed your sources as being anything but credible, and proved your post was an obvious anti-Israeli fabrication, you show just how dishonest and despicable you are by saying:

Quote:
What are you talking about? The post was, clearly, not proffered as a news bulletin.
That is a lie dchristie. One of the many lies your warped anti-American ideology revolves around and thrives upon.

The ONLY thing that ties you to America dchristie, is that you may have been born here, but that's all. Nothing else about you is American in any way, shape or form. In fact, if you weren't born here, or weren't a legal citizen of the U.S., your sorry ass would surely be in a military prison rotting away with the rest of the terrorists and enemies of America.

.


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  #25  
Old 07-17-2006, 10:56 PM
fragout81 fragout81 is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawb
Here's some facts for you; the apparent disregard of UN resolutions that call for Israel to discontinue their various acts. You have seen the list have you not? There was another one recently that would have called Israel to pull out of Gaza, but of course, as usual, the US vetoes yet another resolution against Israel.

It is the US that enables Israel to continue its behavior no matter what the circumstances may be. When other countries, that have a valid claim are up against this type of circumstances, what road should they take that will permit them to stand up for themselves?

But that doesn't validate what this thread is about. I want you conspiracy theorists to prove that Israel started this conflict by going into Lebanon first. Again, we can debate Israels existance on and on. We can debate US/Israel policy on and on. Neither of those discussions will lead to a conclusion that Israel started this conflict by going into Lebanon.

dchristie:

I DID acknowledge the Asian Times article.. I told you that the author of that article, Sami Moubayed, is a Syrian polictical analyst... A biased source of information. Just today the rockets fired into Hafia were determined to be Syrian rockets... What's in Syria's best politcal interest? Remember when I told you to look up "Al-Takeyya?" Maybe you should. It will give you some insight to the motivation of that article.



Last edited by fragout81 : 07-17-2006 at 11:09 PM.
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  #26  
Old 07-17-2006, 11:11 PM
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RegulationE RegulationE is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Welcome to the board fragout81. If more posters like yourself posted here, we may actually be able to hold a civil debate from which we could learn a thing or two from each other.


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  #27  
Old 07-17-2006, 11:30 PM
cscirpoli cscirpoli is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchristie
LOL...Rah..rah..rah..sis "boom" ba. These filthy, degenerate war-loving, fascist Monkeys are always cheerleaders for wanton death and destruction, especially if there are plenty of innocent, civilian victims left under the smoking rubble. They've never met an atrocity, war-crime or criminal act of Zionist terror they didn't just love, especially if they think there's some good money in it.
wow you use a lot of big words and long sentences to say the same thing over and over again. Every time i read you, I feel like i'm listening to political writings from White Supremisits. They have a certain flair to them, that you write with. Interstingly enough, Israel is a blossoming nation, while, any nation that has radical muslims, is on the decline, unless they are an oil nation. It seems like radical muslims bring down the level of sophistication and finance in any country they reside. They are the people that want women to be property, that want to wipe all other people beside the muslims off the face of the planet. And want to wage war against civilians, and innocents vs fight the political regime they so despise. Now are there radicals on both sides, yes. Are there wrongs on both sides, yes, but at least Israel is a nation trying to advance itself. While these radical muslims would rather see the rest of the muslim nation wallow in poverty while they commit genocide of all other races...


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  #28  
Old 07-18-2006, 01:32 AM
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dchristie dchristie is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fragout81
dchristie:

I DID acknowledge the Asian Times article.. I told you that the author of that article, Sami Moubayed, is a Syrian polictical analyst... A biased source of information. Just today the rockets fired into Hafia were determined to be Syrian rockets... What's in Syria's best politcal interest? Remember when I told you to look up "Al-Takeyya?" Maybe you should. It will give you some insight to the motivation of that article.
Hard to follow your logic, Frag. I may claim that Mike Wallace, Wolf Blitzer or Bill Kristol are not credible sources of information because they are Jews. Is that a valid point? There is as much efficacy in that statement as your claim about Moubayed. If you have some credible data to support your assertion, you will have to use that instead of simply casting aspersions based on someone's nationality.

There are plenty of corrollaries to "Al-Takeyya" in The Talmud. So what?

Please provide your source for the claim about the alleged "Syrian" rocket. Is this meaningful? The US manufactures and sells over 4 times more armaments than the rest of The World combined. What if it happened to be a US made rocket? What's your point?

US made tanks, war planes, helicopters, bombs and artillery are being used right now to slaughter numerous innocent Lebanese and Palestinians. This arbitrary carnage has been going on for 30 years. Are you prepared to denounce this as well?


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  #29  
Old 07-18-2006, 01:56 AM
beenie beenie is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchristie
Please provide your source for the claim about the alleged "Syrian" rocket. Is this meaningful? The US manufactures and sells over 4 times more armaments than the rest of The World combined. What if it happened to be a US made rocket? What's your point?

US made tanks, war planes, helicopters, bombs and artillery are being used right now to slaughter numerous innocent Lebanese and Palestinians. This arbitrary carnage has been going on for 30 years. Are you prepared to denounce this as well?
-- nailed !!


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  #30  
Old 07-18-2006, 03:15 AM
fragout81 fragout81 is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

I know it's hard to follow my logic. You seem to get all fuzzy when real facts are presented to you. Let me clarify on Moubayed. I can say he is a biased source because on HIS WEBSITE (http://www.mideastviews.com) on his about page is the following:

"An advocate of the Palestinian Cause, he has written many articles on Palestinian affairs and was a strong supporter of former Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Moubayed is working on a collection of articles on Arafat entitled,” Arafat Remembered,” due for release exactly one year after Arafat's death, on November 11, 2005."

Find me such information regarding Mike Wallace, Wolf Blitzer or Bill Kristol (Whom I did not reference) and you may be able to reject them as valid sources. Since they have no writings that identify them with either cause, they appear to be valid sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchristie
There are plenty of corrollaries to "Al-Takeyya" in The Talmud. So what?
Exactly... So what? Why make a big deal of that quote about lying to save your own skin then? You just made my point for me.

As for the Syrian rocket I only have references to the Jerusalem Post which I know you will reject. So in my opinion, even rejecting that source, it is being stated in the media that the rockets are Syrian which gives Syria every motive to lie about this conflict to maintain that they aren't involved.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchristie
US made tanks, war planes, helicopters, bombs and artillery are being used right now to slaughter numerous innocent Lebanese and Palestinians. This arbitrary carnage has been going on for 30 years. Are you prepared to denounce this as well?
Nailed... Not quite...

This is just not true on two levels.

1) The Israeli army is one of the best in the world. They have some of the best and newest technology and weaponry and they supply most of their own military assets and develop almost all of their own weapons. Even the things they get from America are sold through private contracts, like the Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbows. Even those are fitted with Israel's own launch systems. The tanks used in Israel are manufactured by Israel. Look up "Merkava 4." In fact, I can only think of one weapon used in Israel (off the top of my head) that is provided by the US military. We even provide them to Kuwait. They are Patriot Missles, which are defensive interception missles and are surface-to-air ballistic-to-ballistic only. Other than that, I guess they get humvees from us and mount their own 50-cal rifles on top. Nonetheless, in no way are we supplying them the means to "slaughter innocent people."

2) "Slaughter numerous innocents".. Ok... I guess that Hezbollah targeting civilians doesn't count, does it? Israel dropped leaflets warning civilians that they were going to attack, did Hezbollah show that courtesy? No. Hezbollah doesn't even hide the fact that they target civilians. They officially announced that they are targeting Tiberias. What military assets are in Tiberias? Are you ignorant to that fact or do you intentionally disregard it. It's sad that innocent people get caught up in war, but it is a brutal reality of war. I wish and hope for the safety of all civilians caught in the crossfire, in Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon.



Last edited by fragout81 : 07-18-2006 at 03:18 AM.
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  #31  
Old 07-18-2006, 04:55 AM
Americanadian's Avatar
Americanadian Americanadian is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cscirpoli
wow you use a lot of big words and long sentences to say the same thing over and over again. Every time i read you, I feel like i'm listening to political writings from White Supremisits. They have a certain flair to them, that you write with. Interstingly enough, Israel is a blossoming nation, while, any nation that has radical muslims, is on the decline, unless they are an oil nation. It seems like radical muslims bring down the level of sophistication and finance in any country they reside. They are the people that want women to be property, that want to wipe all other people beside the muslims off the face of the planet. And want to wage war against civilians, and innocents vs fight the political regime they so despise. Now are there radicals on both sides, yes. Are there wrongs on both sides, yes, but at least Israel is a nation trying to advance itself. While these radical muslims would rather see the rest of the muslim nation wallow in poverty while they commit genocide of all other races...
That's because the Muslims are seeking other countries to live in, namely the US and Canada.


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  #32  
Old 07-18-2006, 05:03 AM
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Americanadian Americanadian is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fragout81
Nailed... Not quite...

This is just not true on two levels.

1) The Israeli army is one of the best in the world. They have some of the best and newest technology and weaponry and they supply most of their own military assets and develop almost all of their own weapons. Even the things they get from America are sold through private contracts, like the Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbows. Even those are fitted with Israel's own launch systems. The tanks used in Israel are manufactured by Israel. Look up "Merkava 4." In fact, I can only think of one weapon used in Israel (off the top of my head) that is provided by the US military. We even provide them to Kuwait. They are Patriot Missles, which are defensive interception missles and are surface-to-air ballistic-to-ballistic only. Other than that, I guess they get humvees from us and mount their own 50-cal rifles on top. Nonetheless, in no way are we supplying them the means to "slaughter innocent people."
Maybe you care to explain the following then?

Quote:
ARMS TRADE RESOURCE CENTER

U.S. Arms Transfers and Security Assistance to Israel


An Arms Trade Resource Center Fact Sheet
by William D. Hartung and Frida Berrigan
May 6, 2002

U.S. press coverage of Israeli attacks on the Palestinian Authority and Palestinian towns on the West Bank often treat the U.S. government as either an innocent bystander or an honest broker in the current conflict, often without giving a full sense of the importance of the United States role as a supplier of arms, aid, and military technology to Israel. In its role as Israel’s primary arms supplier, the United States could exert significant potential leverage over Israeli behavior in the conflict, if it chooses to do so.

Military and Economic Aid

Since 1976, Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. According to a November 2001 Congressional Research Service report, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, U.S. aid to Israel in the last half century has totaled a whopping $81.3 billion.

In recent years, Israel remains the top recipient of U.S. military and economic assistance. The most commonly cited figure is $3 billion a year, with about $1.8 billion a year in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) grants from the Department of Defense and an additional $1.2 billion a year in Economic Support Funds (ESF) from the Department of State. In the last decade FMF grants to Israel have totaled $18.2 billion. In fact, 17% of all U.S. foreign aid is earmarked for Israel.

For 2003, the Bush administration is proposing that Israel receive $2.76 billion in foreign aid, with $2.1 billion in FMF and $600 million in ESF. An additional $28 million will go to Israel for the purchase U.S. manufactured counter terrorism equipment.

Weapons Sales and Grants

Israel is one of the United State’s largest arms importers. In the last decade, the United States has sold Israel $7.2 billion in weaponry and military equipment, $762 million through Direct Commercial Sales (DCS), more than $6.5 billion through the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program.

In fact, Israel is so devoted to U.S. military hardware that it has the world's largest fleet of F-16s outside the U.S., currently possessing more than 200 jets. Another 102 F-16s are on order from Lockheed Martin.

The United States has also underwritten Israel’s domestic armaments industry, by giving:

$1.3 billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled)
$625 million to develop and deploy the Arrow anti-missile missile (an ongoing project)
$200 million to develop the Merkava tank (operative); the latest version, the Merkava 4, uses a German V-12 diesel engine produced under license in the U.S. by General Dynamics
$130 million to develop the high-energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing).
While overall aid to Israel is slated to decrease over the next five years, military aid will increase significantly. One of President Clinton’s last acts was to sign an agreement with Israel, phasing out the ESF by 2008. At the same time, FMF funds to Israel will increase $60 million each year, reaching $2.4 billion by 2008.

Free Weapons to Israel

The U.S. also gives Israel weapons and ammunition as part of the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) program, providing these articles completely free of charge. Between 1994-2001 the U.S. provided many weapons through this program, including:

64,744 M-16A1 rifles
2,469 M-204 grenade launchers
1,500 M-2 .50 caliber machine guns
.30 caliber, .50 caliber, and 20mm ammunition
U.S. Weapons in the Israeli Arsenal

Selected list

Weapon
Quantity
Manufacturer
Cost Per Unit

Fighter Planes

F-4E Phantom
50
Boeing
$18.4 million

F-15 Eagle
98
Boeing (originally McDonnell Douglas)
$38 million

F-16 Fighting Falcon
237
Lockheed Martin
$34.3 million

Helicopters

AH-64 Apache Attack
42
Boeing
$14.5 million

Cobra Attack
57
Bell Textron
$10.7 million

CH-53D Sea Stallion
38
Sikorsky

Blackhawk
25
Sikorsky
$11 million

Missiles

AGM 65 Maverick
Raytheon
$17,000-$110,000

AGM 114 Hellfire
Boeing
$40,000

TOW
Hughes
$180,000

AIM 7 Sparrow
Raytheon
$125,000

AIM 9 Sidewinder
Raytheon
$84,000

AIM 120 B AMRAAM
Raytheon
$386,000

Patriot
Raytheon and Lockheed Martin

Harpoon Anti-Ship Missile
Boeing
$720,000



Weapons that Kill

It is in the United States' national interest to promote the existence of a stable, democratic and militarily strong Israel, at peace with its neighbors.

U.S. Department of Defense statement on Israel, in Joint Report to Congress, January 3, 2001

The scale of Israeli attacks on Palestinian towns and refugee camps in the West Bank has been "disproportionate and often reckless," according to a recent Amnesty International report. Amnesty estimates that in the six weeks from March 1, through mid-April, more than 600 Palestinians have been killed and over 3,000 wounded by Israeli soldiers.

The use of U.S. weapons in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinian authority appears to be a clear violation of the U.S. Arms Export Control Act prohibiting U.S. weapons from being used for non-defensive purposes. The State Department’s Country Reports on Human Rights Practices 2001, released in March 2002, stated that the IDF employed "excessive use of force" against the Palestinians, noting their use of live ammunition, even when not in imminent danger. The State Department report also stated that Israeli military "shelled Palestinian Authority (PA) institutions and Palestinian civilian areas in response to individual Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians or settlers." These comments demonstrate that the U.S. knows that weapons are not being used for the "legitimate defense" purposes stipulated in the Arms Export Control Act.

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan recently expressed his concern with the use of U.S. weapons by the IDF, saying

I feel obliged to call your attention to disturbing patterns in the treatment of civilians and humanitarian relief workers by the Israeli Defense Forces…. Judging from the means and methods employed by the IDF-- F-16 fighter-bombers, helicopter and naval gunships, missiles and bombs of heavy tonnage-- the fighting has come to resemble all-out conventional warfare. In the process, hundreds of innocent noncombatant civilians -- men, women and children -- have been injured or killed, and many buildings and homes have been damaged or destroyed. Tanks have been deployed in densely populated refugee camps and in towns and villages; and heavy explosives have been dropped mere meters from schools where thousands of children were in attendance.


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  #33  
Old 07-18-2006, 05:07 AM
Americanadian's Avatar
Americanadian Americanadian is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Instances of the IDF’s Use of U.S. Weapons against Civilians

Gaza, CNN, February 11, 2002
"On Sunday [February 10, 2002], Israel attacked the headquarters of Force 17, the elite guard for Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat. Two employees of the United Nations were wounded and a UN facility was damaged in the attack, prompting condemnation of the action from UN Secretary General Kofi Annan. The UN said it was the third time the office of Terje Roed-Larsen, the UN special coordinator for the Middle East peace process, had been damaged as a result of attacks by the Israelis. The bombing also caused damage to other UN offices, including that of the representatives of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.

Jenin, New York Times, April 18, 2002
"The decaying body of Mr. Khurj's sister appears to be one of the clearest examples to date of a civilian having been killed in an Apache helicopter missile attack. There is an enormous hole in the wall of her bedroom and a two-foot-wide crater in the floor. Shards of a missile, including one with labels in English describing ''firing temperature'' and ''cooling temperature,'' littered the floor. Near the hole in the wall was a pool of dried blood. Mr. Khurj said the missile struck in the middle of the night on the third day of the attack. It killed his sister instantly."

Deheishe, Washington Post, March 10, 2002.
"Today Israeli tanks and troops invaded the other camp, Deheishe, which has a population of 8,000. Tanks and bulldozers had been positioned on a hill behind the community, and armed AH-64 Apache attack helicopters had hovered overhead. Soldiers knocked down a pedestrian bridge that led to the camp's school."

Bethlehem, Washington Post, March 8, 2002.
"The Israeli military almost immediately launched more missiles and opened fire with gunboats at official Palestinian buildings in the Gaza Strip, where there were heavy casualties. Israel also sent dozens of tanks and armored personnel carriers into Bethlehem, two adjacent Palestinian refugee camps and a pair of neighboring West Bank towns, bringing full-scale military action to the suburbs of Jerusalem. The bark of heavy machine guns atop Israel's armored vehicles echoed throughout Bethlehem, considered the birthplace of Jesus, and U.S.-supplied AH-64 Apache helicopters fired into the Aida refugee camp between Bethlehem and Beit Jala."

Resources for More Information

Foreign Policy In Focus: April 2002 issue brief on U.S. Military Aid to Israel available on their web site at www.foreignpolicy-infocus.org
Arms Sales Monitoring Project, Federation of American Scientists (www.fas.org/asmp) has a searchable database on U.S. arms transfers by country, plus a list of recent arms sales agreements entered into by the U.S.
Jane’s Defence Weekly has done an Israel country briefing in its May 1, 2002 issue, containing about eight pages of analysis of current Israeli armed forces with details on key holdings. Available on the web at www.janes.com
Frida Berrigan and William D. Hartung of the Arms Trade Resource Center prepared this fact sheet. The ATRC is a project of the World Policy Institute at the New School University. Contact the project at berrigaf@newschool.edu or 212-229-5808 ext. 112.
or how about this one??

Quote:
US to sell bunker bombs to Israel
The US government is proposing a $30m deal selling up to 100 laser-guided bunker-busting bombs to Israel.
The GBU-28 is a 2,000-kg conventional weapon with a powerful warhead that can burrow through six metres (20 feet) of concrete or 30 metres of earth.

The sale has gone ahead despite concern that Israel might use the weapon for a unilateral attack against Iran.

Congress has 30 days to reject planned foreign military sales, but correspondents say it rarely does so.

Israel - assumed to be the Middle East's only nuclear-armed state - says it is not planning a military strike against the Islamic republic.

However, the bombs are to be fitted on its F-15 fighter jets, which would put Iran within range.

Some analysts say the deal may be intended by Washington to back up with a bit of military muscle European diplomatic efforts to avert the prospect of a nuclear-armed Iran.

Talks between the Europeans and Iran are deadlocked over Tehran's refusal to give up uranium enrichment which could be used for arms production.

The US has accused Iran of using its civilian nuclear programme as a cover to develop nuclear weapons, a charge Tehran denies.

Much of Israel's military equipment is supplied by the US
BBC news


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  #34  
Old 07-18-2006, 05:08 AM
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Americanadian Americanadian is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

la-la-lala..... caught with their pants down. heeheehee....

Quote:
Friday March 28, 2003

Israeli-made weapons used by U.S. risky for Jewish state

MATTHEW GUTMAN
Jewish Telegraphic Agency

TEL AVIV -- In addition to the profit, being in the world's technological vanguard can also yield danger.

According to senior Israeli military officers, the threat to Israel ratcheted up a few levels Sunday when Iraq's foreign minister, Nadji Sabri, declared that "Israel is taking part in this aggression against Iraq. It's sending missiles. We found a missile, an Israeli missile, in Baghdad."

Sabri offered no proof to back up the allegation, but media have broadcast pictures of missile fragments printed with the words "Made in Jerusalem."

The development raised anxiety levels in the Israel Defense Force that had been lowered since U.S. forces seized airfields in western Iraq in the early days of the war, minimizing the chance that Iraq would be able to fire missiles into Israel.

"Israel is now fully in the center of this war picture," said one military source.

For all Saddam Hussein's posturing, the Israeli intelligence community views him as a man of his word and a rational actor.

When Saddam vowed to attack Israel before the 1991 Persian Gulf War, intelligence officials believed him -- and he followed through.

When he seemed to omit Israel from bellicose speeches this winter, Israel reacted by predicting a "very, very low probability of an Iraqi attack."

With American missiles wrecking buildings in Baghdad with the frequency and regularity of a metronome, it is likely that Iraq will dig out many more Israeli parts from the debris. Israel is, after all, the world's third largest exporter of arms, earning $3.5 billion a year in arms sales, according to Jane's Defense Weekly.

What's more, Israeli technology is spread throughout the American army. Israeli high-tech material purchased by America ranges from Popeye air-to-surface missiles to Hunter and Pioneer unmanned drones, to computer systems on Bradley mechanized vehicles.

Israeli defense officials cringed this week when Joel Johnson, a spokesman for the Aerospace Industries Association, a Washington-based industry lobby, proclaimed last week that "we'll be shooting down some" French-built "Mirage 3s, I think, if the Iraqis ever come up. We may shoot them with an Israeli missile, from a U.S. warplane."

Officials at Israel Military Industries and Israel Aircraft Industries are proud that the United States chooses Israeli components, but they are wary of explicit mention of their use in Iraq.

"All we know is that the Hunter and Pioneer" unmanned aerial vehicles "were co-developed with and now utilized by the American Army," one cautious IAI official said on condition of anonymity.

Israel is trying to keep a low profile in the current conflict, according to reserve Col. Shimon Byorski, former chief of the Iraq department at military intelligence.

Tying Israel to the U.S. campaign on Iraq "gives Iraq options in case Saddam wishes to change his strategy in the future and attack Israel," Byorski said. In that case, Saddam might try to describe such aggression as retribution for "Israeli missiles fired at Iraq."

It's unfortunate that Israel's technology is being used as "propaganda against the West," Byorski said. "But as we have seen, it can prove useful to use the Israel card against the West.''


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  #35  
Old 07-18-2006, 06:53 AM
fragout81 fragout81 is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

I applaud Americanadian for posting a rebuttal with actual, factual information. It seems I didn't research that enough before posting. Still a small percentage compared to what Israel produces by itself, it is nonetheless a flaw in my argument.

Now I would like those who claim the "Slaughter numerous innocent Palestinians and Lebanese" to prove that, with the information posted by Americanadian, that 1) There is reliable evidence to prove the theory of mass-slaughter at all, and 2) to prove that the military assistance by the US has any direct and meaningful impact on #1.

And to be honest, this is getting off topic. Before you prove the above, I want you to prove that Isreal "started it" by going into Lebanon first (without a personal attack).


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  #36  
Old 07-18-2006, 08:41 AM
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Rawb Rawb is offline
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Re: Israel Started It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fragout81
I applaud Americanadian for posting a rebuttal with actual, factual information. It seems I didn't research that enough before posting. Still a small percentage compared to what Israel produces by itself, it is nonetheless a flaw in my argument.

Now I would like those who claim the "Slaughter numerous innocent Palestinians and Lebanese" to prove that, with the information posted by Americanadian, that 1) There is reliable evidence to prove the theory of mass-slaughter at all, and 2) to prove that the military assistance by the US has any direct and meaningful impact on #1.

And to be honest, this is getting off topic. Before you prove the above, I want you to prove that Isreal "started it" by going into Lebanon first (without a personal attack).
Well, well, well. Look what I found...

Quote:
GREEN LIGHT TO SLAUGHTER

By Tanya Reinhart, October 21, 00.



In the Sharm-al-Sheikh summit last week, Barak got from the US his green light to slaughter. To judge by the Israeli media, what we have seen so far is just the prelude. "The most important will come in the middle of next week, when...Israel will have to consider taking the initiative, rather than merely responding to events". ('Haaretz', Amos Harel, Oct 19.00)

Bits and pieces of the "initiative" have been revealed: It includes entering PA areas "to confiscate weapons", and 'inevitable' air raidings. There is talk about the Palestinian Kosovo, with 2000-3000 Palestinians dead. As usual, the blame for this slaughter is put in advance on Arafat, who, the story goes, wants his people to be slaughtered, to gain international sympathy.

Another aspect of what is being planned has started already, with very little coverage, under the calm title of 'evacuation'. Palestinian residents of 'areas of conflict' near Jewish settlements have been called to evacuate their homes "for their own protection". So far this happened in el-Bireh (7.10), Beit-Jallah (18.10) and the Askar refugee camp near Nablus (19.10). And this is just the beginning. In more direct words - transfer under the pretext of war.

The military preparations and training for the Israeli attack have started already in June, when Barak first informed Israeli media that "there is a danger of a Palestinian unrest, following the model of Southern Lebanon". But to get there, it was first necessary to manifest Barak's unprecedented eagerness for peace. The model was rehearsed on Syria earlier this year: Intensive "peace talks" at the end of which Barak declared that there is no partner for peace. The camp David "peace round" was sufficient to convince the obedient Israeli media that the same is true of the Palestinians. All that was still needed was US approval.



US APPROVAL.

For three weeks now, Barak has been dragging full execution, waiting for US green light. As reported in early October, "Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak is appealing to the United States for approval of a massive offensive against Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority. So far, the United States has appealed to Barak for more time" (World Tribune, Oct 9).

We may have been fooled to believe he won't get US approval this time. There is so much opposition to Israel's acts throughout the world. The Arab world is storming with demonstrations. US embassies had to close temporarily, and the Yemen explosion was some indication of the burning soil.

The US was first cautious - not even the customary vetoing of the security council resolution. CNN - the most direct seismograph of the White House - betrayed the hesitations. There was a week when sharp criticism of Israel was allowed in their news, along with the standard pro-Israeli propaganda, and even Edward Said got a full-length interview, probably for the first time in CNN's history. But no more! - The three weeks of deliberations did end with a green light. Intensive diplomacy of threats and promises convinced the US that the Arab regimes can still be relied upon to stand their people's pressure. They expect the Arab-league summit to end up as a harmless ceremony. They believe that when it ends, the tanks can start talking, undisturbed.

For the US, this is a dangerous game. But what's at stake here is not just its automatic backing of Israel. The explosive Arab anger has been directed at the US no less than Israel. The rational move for the US would have been to cool things off for now, to stop Barak. But that has never been the US strategy. They can't tolerate even the slight disobedience of loyal servants. They have to show who is the master.



ARAFAT'S ROLE.

In the Sharm-al-Sheikh summit, Arafat complied again. We may have been fooled to believe that this time, under the pressure of his people, he is going to change. But it is too late for him to change. The tragedy of the Palestinian people is that the person who in the past symbolized their struggle in the world's eyes has turned into an executer of the Israeli occupation.

The substantial issue which was worked out in the summit, behind the public show of "cease fire", was the security agreement, which guarantees Arafat's continued commitment to do the security job for Israel, namely, prevent Palestinian retaliations inside Israel. As reported in 'haaretz', "its implementation will be overseen by CIA chief George Tenet and the CIA representative in Tel Aviv. This agreement will, for the first time, involve CIA observers in the field in addition to CIA participation in Israeli-Palestinian meetings." ('haaretz', Aluf Ben, oct 18.00)

Indeed, just a day after the summit, Israeli undercover unit seized eight Palestinians who were in the crowd that lynched two Israeli soldiers a week before.

"The operation was carried out with the connivance of some members of the Palestinian security forces, who apparently tipped off the Israelis where to find the men." 'The Telegraph' (U.K.), Alan Phillips in Jerusalem, 19 October 2000,

The official propaganda in Israel is that Arafat is responsible for the uprising, and "he is not a real partner for peace". Not only does this provide the continuous justification for the planned slaughter, but it is also the biggest service Israel can offer in return for Arafat's compliance. Israel's constant 'dissatisfaction' with Arafat is his only claim for credibility.

When Israel intensified its murder of unarmed demonstrators, on Friday the 20th (with 10 dead in one day) Arafat's spokesman, Arikaat, was interviewed pleading no other then the US to investigate and to protect the Palestinians. This follows another concession of Arafat at Sharm- al-Sheikh. -No more pleas to the international community. From now on, little red ridinghood can only call the woolf to protect her.

If there is anything that could still prevent the blood-shed, it is international intervention. International inspectors, UN forces, or even just NGO volunteers present in the area could potentially slow down Israeli forces. It is therefore extremely important now to understand Arafat's collaborating role, and to remember that it is Israel, rather than the Palestinian people, who view the US as the 'neutral moderator'.



Tanya Reinhart Tel Aviv University and the university of Utrecht.
And please note the source. It is from within Israel.

So what we have here is an article pointing to Israel's desire to invade Lebanon and the Palestinian authority 6 years ago. Interesting...

So now we need to look at the current events and what actually transpired. I have read that the Hezbollah crossed over and attacked the Israeli side. But with the above article, there may have been some provocation on Israel's part as this would enable them the excuse needed to invade Lebanon.




Last edited by Rawb : 07-18-2006 at 08:48 AM.
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