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  #37  
Old 08-23-2010, 06:04 AM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
Are you saying that women who resolve a dispute in a UK Sharia court have the same legal standing as a man? If that's true I'm with you that it's not a problem. However I seriously doubt that. Are there rules established by the government to insure that women have equal legal standing before these courts? Does the government moniter these courts in any way to insure this is the case? If so there is no problem.

I think the reality is that women do not have the same legal standing as men in these courts and the argument is that they are "voluntarily" subjecting themselves to second class citizenship. If that's the case it is simply not acceptable.
I agree with you, it's not acceptable that women are treated worse than men. Thats certainly a more widespread problem than Muslim civil courts though, as most women doing the same jobs as men would attest, receiving considerably less money generally.

I would prefer immeasurably that such religious third party arbitration "courts" didnt exist, personally. But they exist for anyone who wants them, and agrees to their use as arbiters.

I keep going back to the Jewish Beth Din, which does the same job in UK, has done for many many years. Same thing - people agree to them being arbiters and then are bound by the outcome, in civil cases.

Quote:
Divorce, in Jewish law, takes place when a document called a Get, written out by a scribe in Aramaic and ancient Hebrew, is handed by the husband to the wife. It is not legal the other way round, but that does not mean that men have it all their own way.
I'm not comparing the two in terms of the extent to which there is men/women discrimination, but both the jewish and the muslim cultural traditions are able to be used to sort out civil affairs.

That there is a danger of discrimination against women in such a tradition is down to the tradition itself. But if the parties agree to use that tradition, as many jewish families do, are we to ban it because we wouldnt want to do it ourselves?

Also, it occurs to me that in financial matters, civil contracts and pre-nuptual agreements etc may well be seen to discriminate against someone, but they are voluntary agreements which are then binding. Other civil arbitration systems are the same, no matter if someone outside of it thinks it bonkers. Its the voluntary nature that makes it legal.

I think we are looking in the wrong place to combat anti-women bias here. Its the culture that says that is the way to do things that is wrong, in our opinion. That needs to be fought against, most likely and successfully by Muslims. But I cant say two Muslims cant agree to sort out their affairs in what I think is an unbalanced way.


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  #38  
Old 08-23-2010, 06:28 AM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
it's not acceptable that women are treated worse than men. Thats certainly a more widespread problem than Muslim civil courts though, as most women doing the same jobs as men would attest, receiving considerably less money generally..
Thistle, I am not convinced that woman get the raw deal (in society, at large), that you allude to.

Here are some examples.

1) Man and woman are married. They get divorced. Both are equally brilliant parents. Both want full custody of the children. 99,999 times out of 100,000, the court will award in favour of the women. What's that, if not discrimination, against men?

2) Married couple, again. Women gets pregnant. SHE decides to abort. It's HIS baby too, remember? Yet, he is afforded ZERO say in the matter. Rest assured, if men could get pregnant, and we spun that scenario around, there would be a total OUTCRY...from women.

3) Ad's on tv re domestic violence. It's ALWAYS, with NO exceptions, the man who is portrayed as the one doing the hitting. Men are victims of domestic violence, as well. Where are the ad's that mention that?

Just three examples to be going on with.

Steve
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  #39  
Old 08-23-2010, 06:41 AM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
Thistle, I am not convinced that woman get the raw deal (in society, at large), that you allude to.

Here are some examples.

1) Man and woman are married. They get divorced. Both are equally brilliant parents. Both want full custody of the children. 99,999 times out of 100,000, the court will award in favour of the women. What's that, if not discrimination, against men?

2) Married couple, again. Women gets pregnant. SHE decides to abort. It's HIS baby too, remember? Yet, he is afforded ZERO say in the matter. Rest assured, if men could get pregnant, and we spun that scenario around, there would be a total OUTCRY...from women.

3) Ad's on tv re domestic violence. It's ALWAYS, with NO exceptions, the man who is portrayed as the one doing the hitting. Men are victims of domestic violence, as well. Where are the ad's that mention that?

Just three examples to be going on with.

Steve
Three examples, yes, granted. Generality? Women in general get treated worse, in the ways in which a muslim civil arbitration might also do, ie civil financial, not treated as equals, general sexism etc.

I'm not being absolute here.



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  #40  
Old 08-23-2010, 07:28 AM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
Three examples, yes, granted. Generality? Women in general get treated worse, in the ways in which a muslim civil arbitration might also do, ie civil financial, not treated as equals, general sexism etc.

I'm not being absolute here.
Yes, three examples, but three very important examples, don't you agree?

How many more would you like? What professions do women get paid less? I used to work for the Scotsman and Sunday Times, and men and women were paid the same. How about GP's, are female GP's paid less? What jobs are you speaking about, specifically?

As for sexism, in my experience, women can be just as sexist as men.
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  #41  
Old 08-23-2010, 08:46 AM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
Yes, three examples, but three very important examples, don't you agree?

How many more would you like? What professions do women get paid less? I used to work for the Scotsman and Sunday Times, and men and women were paid the same. How about GP's, are female GP's paid less? What jobs are you speaking about, specifically?

As for sexism, in my experience, women can be just as sexist as men.
Again, its a general point I am making, and no doubt things improve over time. But there is still a gender gap, both here in UK and in the US

The gender pay gap (as measured by the median hourly pay excluding overtime) narrowed between 2008 and 2009. For full-time employees, the pay gap is 12.2 per cent, down from 12.6 per cent in 2008.

When calculated using the mean rather than the median, womenís hourly pay was 16.4 per cent less than men's pay for full-time employees, 13.2 per cent less than menís pay for part-time employees and 20.2 per cent less for all employees.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=167

But my general point is obvious, that historically there is society-wide sexism with women on the receiving end, primarily. Glass celings and all that.

This continues today to a much lesser degree than in the past, but does still exist. And my point originally stands - that this sexism exists in UK culture as much as muslim culture, albeit to a different degree.

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  #42  
Old 08-23-2010, 08:57 AM
Tulip Tulip is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

Here is some information on some of the problems women face in the Sharia courts.

I am also going to post an article I have just read that I feel gives a good understanding of Sharia Law.

After reading these articles my understanding is Muslims want to have their legal matters heard in Sharia courts. I understand in Sharia courts in the west both parties have to sign an agreement that they both agree to the legal finding of the court.

It also is saying yes, there are problems with these courts but that these problems are being worked out.


From what I have read in the criminal court hearings, Sharia courts, in Muslim countries, stoning, honor killing and amputation done for punishment of crimes is very rear and they are making changes in the punishments used for punishing the guilty in criminal cases.

I feel Muslims should be left to make their own changes in their religion. It seems to me there are problems and isolated situations where Muslims are being mistreated but it seems they themselves are making positive changes. There are many people working to better the understanding of fairness to Muslim women and Muslims in general. I feel people need education and with understanding and education the Muslim religion will change.


http://www.cfr.org/publication/8034/islam.html


Some Imams 'biased against women'


By Sanjiv Buttoo
BBC Asian Network



Many women felt they did not get a fair hearing under Sharia law

A Muslim think tank has found some UK Imams discriminate against women when enforcing Islamic Sharia law.
Scholars at the Centre for Islamic Pluralism (CIP) interviewed 90 Muslims in London, the West Midlands, Lancashire and West Yorkshire.
They found some women did not get fair hearings in forced marriage, arranged marriage and domestic violence matters.
It comes after an NHS doctor was freed in Bangladesh following claims she was being held there for a forced marriage.
Sharia is a set of principles which govern the way many Muslims believe they should live their life. Some mosques hold Sharia courts.
The CIP's international director and its report's author Dr Irfan Al-Alawi said women seeking help in situations like forced marriages often turned to Imams for a ruling on what to do.
Some ladies have approached the Imams and the Imams... have encouraged the ladies to stay with their husband or with their in-laws


Dr Irfan Al-Alawi

"Our research shows that domestic violence and forced marriages seem to be the dominant problems that women are facing and seeking Sharia rulings on.
"In every case it is a male who is the defendant coming from India, Pakistan or Bangladesh.
"Some ladies have approached the Imams and the Imams... have encouraged the ladies to stay with their husband or with their in-laws, whereby they have a duty bound under the Sharia."
He said he knew of a 15-year-old girl in Pakistan who was tricked into marriage over the telephone with a 40-year-old man from Sheffield, who had the mental age of a four-year-old child.
"The Home Office refused to recognise the validity of the marriage but the Islamic Sharia Council in Britain accepted it," said Dr Al-Alawi.
He said Imams should be working at the heart of their communities showing leadership, but some were failing to do so.
He accused some Imams of "cashing in" on the Sharia system.
On average it may cost someone £250 to go and get an Islamic divorce, he said.

Dr Abedin's return has been ordered by the High Court in Dhaka

"There are Pirs [Muslim holy men] and Imams who come here from south Asia and charge people for charms, holy *****... how is this helping anyone?" he asked.
"They should be putting back something useful into society."
The spotlight has been on forced marriages in recent weeks, with the introduction of new laws designed to help victims, and a high-profile case in Bangladesh.
Lawyers for trainee NHS GP Humayra Abedin, 33, from east London, said her family planned to force her into marriage after she travelled to Dhaka.
She had travelled there as she thought her mother was ill, and then was held against her will for months, they said.
Ms Abedin is due to arrive back in the UK later, after London's High Court ordered her return under the new Forced Marriage Act and the High Court in Dhaka also ruled she must be freed.
Thirty-year-old Sophiya (not her real name) from West Yorkshire, was 13 when her father arranged her marriage to a distant cousin in Pakistan.
I saw three Imams but they all ruled that I was legally married according to the Sharia


Sophiya, 30

She said that after much resistance she was forced to marry a man she did not want to, but decided to go through with it so she could get back to the UK and put her case to a local Imam.
"I saw three Imams but they all ruled that I was legally married according to the Sharia. I told them I had been forced but they said that did not change anything."
Sophiya decided to try and please her parents and her new husband and carry on, but three years later she sought an Islamic divorce.
"I met some more Imams and said that we had been separated now for nearly two years but instead of giving me guidance with my divorce, they suggested I had to go for counselling or therapy.
"I told them I had been forced and this was not Islamic, but they disagreed."
A few months later Sophyia's husband wrote and gave her the Islamic divorce she longed for.
"I went through the proper Islamic way and these men told me to go away."
Sophiya said she wants the government to send Imams back to their countries of origin if they cannot uphold the true values of the Sharia.
'Grey area'
Ishtiaq Ahmed, is a spokesperson the Council for Mosques, a Bradford-based group which represents over 90 mosques and religious schools.
"We have in Britain... Muslims from all over the world, people are practising their own cultural, their social, kind of way of life.
"We have looked into this issue on many occasions and have found that for some Imams a grey area can form where the rulings of the Sharia finish and long-held cultural practices start.
"Imams do need more training and help; we also need lots more female scholars, ulemas, to work with our communities and try and help women."
"I feel Imams are not trying to deliberately discriminate against anyone we just have to be more open in how we pass judgements so everyone is happy and understands the process."
The report is due to be published next month and will be sent to the government and agencies.
It will recommend that Imams coming to the UK from south Asia and Africa need to be vetted to ensure they have a broad knowledge of Islam and a good command of English, so they can carry out their duties in a professional and competent way.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7783627.stm


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  #43  
Old 08-23-2010, 09:04 AM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
This continues today to a much lesser degree than in the past, but does still exist. And my point originally stands - that this sexism exists in UK culture as much as muslim culture, albeit to a different degree.
Except that it doesn't.

As per my three very important examples, earlier on.

25-30 yrs ago, yes.

Now? If anything, sexism(sic) has come full circle.
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  #44  
Old 08-23-2010, 10:34 AM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
Except that it doesn't.

As per my three very important examples, earlier on.

25-30 yrs ago, yes.

Now? If anything, sexism(sic) has come full circle.
Not in the workplaces I have worked in, over the last 20 years. I think we'll just have to disagree on this one.

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  #45  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:18 AM
cirussell cirussell is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
AFAIK, yes they do.(Never fear, Pwrone will explode later, and tell you different, lol).

Slight change of theme here (sorry).

In the US, if a Jewish or Muslim person gets sent to prison, do the prison service cater for their dietary needs? (or the UK, for that matter, I just don't know..)

Do Jews get to eat Kosher food, and Muslims eat Halal?

If so, do you agree that they should be granted this right?

And, if you do agree that they should, then (using my hypothetical new religion), would it be discrimination if a few of us created a religion, in which we demanded that we be fed fois gras, but this was denied to us?
I have not looked into this at any length but I think in some cases the courts have ruled that kosher and halal meals must be served.

If it were left to me I would serve a lot of PBJ to those who didn't prefer the bologna. PBJ is ok for all isn't it?

As far as your personal little religion I'm afraid you'd be out of luck in my prison. fois gras??? LOL My religion would require 1in. thick thick cut of ribeye steak, hung for 14 days, medium rare seasoned with garlic pepper. LOL

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  #46  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:25 AM
cirussell cirussell is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Not in the workplaces I have worked in, over the last 20 years. I think we'll just have to disagree on this one.
How did this d.v.olve into an issue of sexism in the workplace and society at large? We were talking about courts of law. I'm certain that when a woman stands before any court in the US and UK she will be treated on an equal basis. The question is will she have equal standing before a Sharia Court and if not how the heck can we justify allowing such a court in our society.

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  #47  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:32 AM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
How did this d.v.olve into an issue of sexism in the workplace and society at large? We were talking about courts of law. I'm certain that when a woman stands before any court in the US and UK she will be treated on an equal basis. The question is will she have equal standing before a Sharia Court and if not how the heck can we justify allowing such a court in our society.
Sure. This is a distraction. This only started because I was making the point that our societies have discrimination against women, wrong though that is, I'm not defending that as you can see in my argument with Steve. It may be to a lower level than Muslim society, and consequently Muslim civil arrangements, but that wasnt always the case.

My point in bringing up this was simply that denying people civil arbitration of their choice - it's a voluntary choice to use any form of civil arbitration over another - is not how we are going to combat sexism or discrimination against women. Thats a much bigger and wider issue.

Oh, and we arent talking courts of law, at all. Voluntary civil arbitration courts, within the law.



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  #48  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:39 AM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

In theory, all of us here could setup our own third party arbitration system. We would decide on the rules, and it could be as stupid as we want, all decisions would be favourable to people with the letter "a" in their name, unfavourable to everyone else.

And if we all agreed to that system before the arbitration took place, it would be binding. Would it be wrong? We wouldnt be breaking any laws.

Now, of course, the problem with the sharia so-called courts is that they favour men over women in some matters. If that were something that wasnt voluntary, it might (might - I dont know) be illegal. But because it is civil matters it is no more illegal than other areas of Muslim society in UK, the way people live their lives as part of that community.

Do you see what I mean? The problem is within the culture. Preventing people using that culture in civil disputes only just focusses on the wrong problem.

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  #49  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:40 AM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Not in the workplaces I have worked in, over the last 20 years. .

Are you pestering the lassies?

;)
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  #50  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:41 AM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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How did this d.v.olve into an issue of sexism in the workplace and society at large? We were talking about courts of law. .
Were we?

I thought we were taking about civil 'courts'?

*shrugs*
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  #51  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:46 AM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
I have not looked into this at any length but I think in some cases the courts have ruled that kosher and halal meals must be served.

If it were left to me I would serve a lot of PBJ to those who didn't prefer the bologna. PBJ is ok for all isn't it?

As far as your personal little religion I'm afraid you'd be out of luck in my prison. fois gras??? LOL My religion would require 1in. thick thick cut of ribeye steak, hung for 14 days, medium rare seasoned with garlic pepper. LOL

Okay, I was using Fois gras to illustrate a point.

But it could be some other thing, I mean, if one faith is pandered to, in prison, why not all?

That is discrimination, favouritism, isn't it?
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  #52  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:48 AM
cirussell cirussell is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Were we?

I thought we were taking about civil 'courts'?

*shrugs*
So civil courts aren't courts of law? I beg to differ.

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  #53  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:58 AM
cirussell cirussell is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Okay, I was using Fois gras to illustrate a point.

But it could be some other thing, I mean, if one faith is pandered to, in prison, why not all?

That is discrimination, favouritism, isn't it?
I really don't have a problem with reasonable accomadations for people of faith in prison. I have personally seen huge changes take place in the behavior of people in prison who have found faith to replace all of the bad things in their lives. IMO allowing the pracitce of ones faith in prison is a good thing.

I would say reasonable accomodation of legitimate or commonly recognized faiths is something that should happen in prison.

Request for fois gras or ribeye steak as a religious accomadation, probably should get you a stick accross the knuckles.

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  #54  
Old 08-23-2010, 12:15 PM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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So civil courts aren't courts of law? I beg to differ.
Civil courts are courts. Civil arbitration doesnt need a court at all, can be done in a back office if you want.

Arbitration, a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), is a legal technique for the resolution of disputes outside the courts, wherein the parties to a dispute refer it to one or more persons (the "arbitrators", "arbiters" or "arbitral tribunal"), by whose decision (the "award") they agree to be bound. It is a settlement technique in which a third party reviews the case and imposes a decision that is legally binding for both sides


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