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  #19  
Old 08-22-2010, 02:22 PM
Tulip Tulip is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
Sorry, wasn't meant as an insult Tulip.


Look at the Muslim civil courts as arbitration, same as the Jewish ones. Everyone keeps ignoring them, and theyve been running in UK for years.

All of the different forms of civil arbitration are at the civil level - they are all within the law. They cannot do something other than that. So they cant overturn a law, such as any ban on the burka.

I was just making the point at the beginning that the Burka isnt banned in England and wont be. There isnt a proposal to do so, from any of the political parties.

I wasnt laughing at you, just amused. I'm easily amused.
Thank you thistle

I am just having a difficult time understanding what we are dsicussing in this thread.

I need to do some reading and see what has happened in these Sharia courts. I am not familiar with what is taking place. Need to do some research so I can form a better opinion about what cases would be heard in these courts.


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  #20  
Old 08-22-2010, 02:30 PM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulip View Post
Thank you thistle

I am just having a difficult time understanding what we are dsicussing in this thread.

I need to do some reading and see what has happened in these Sharia courts. I am not familiar with what is taking place. Need to do some research so I can form a better opinion about what cases would be heard in these courts.
They arent criminal courts. There is only one legal system (well, in each country in UK).

Its civil disputes and arbitration, divorce and financial agreements. They are arbitration tribunals, officially. The same as any arbitration tribunals, in terms of their legal standing.

And voluntary, like any arbitration.

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  #21  
Old 08-22-2010, 07:31 PM
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pwrone pwrone is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

Another astonishingly stupid statement in the midst of an otherwise...well, let's just say that you speak for Muslim men all over the world on this topic. Okay? "talk to the imam, he'll tell ya. Hmmm. I wonder what 'side ' of the issue that he will be on? And, yes, he will approve any disciplinary measure you deem appropriate. ANY

Our left here is starting to reveal a REAL anti-Muslim-woman bias. It is sickening.


The entire problem with 'banning the burka' is that it is an imposition on an individual, exactly what we are trying to stop, right?

We don't know who wants to wear it and who does not.

It is a knee-jerk reaction to the liberals not allowing ACTUAL debate on the assimilation issue.


But, Gazza, the idea that "The wearing of any head or face covering by Muslim women is by their own choice." is criminally wrong.


Women all over the Muslim world--and Europe-- will be maimed and killed today for violating someone elses' interpretation of the dress code. Someone who matters, in the eyes of the Sharia court. You know, a man.

Do I have to drag out 50 links to Muslim women being injured or killed for NOT wearing a burka?

Why not find out on your own? I think it might stick that way.



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Last edited by pwrone : 08-22-2010 at 07:36 PM.
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  #22  
Old 08-22-2010, 07:57 PM
cirussell cirussell is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
LOL, fella, how good to you think my eyesight is!!!

OK, I edited the post and made the font a little larger. You could also use the link I provided.

What are your thoughts on all of this?

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  #23  
Old 08-22-2010, 08:08 PM
cirussell cirussell is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by pwrone View Post
Another astonishingly stupid statement in the midst of an otherwise...well, let's just say that you speak for Muslim men all over the world on this topic. Okay? "talk to the imam, he'll tell ya. Hmmm. I wonder what 'side ' of the issue that he will be on? And, yes, he will approve any disciplinary measure you deem appropriate. ANY

Our left here is starting to reveal a REAL anti-Muslim-woman bias. It is sickening.


The entire problem with 'banning the burka' is that it is an imposition on an individual, exactly what we are trying to stop, right?

We don't know who wants to wear it and who does not.

It is a knee-jerk reaction to the liberals not allowing ACTUAL debate on the assimilation issue.


But, Gazza, the idea that "The wearing of any head or face covering by Muslim women is by their own choice." is criminally wrong.


Women all over the Muslim world--and Europe-- will be maimed and killed today for violating someone elses' interpretation of the dress code. Someone who matters, in the eyes of the Sharia court. You know, a man.

Do I have to drag out 50 links to Muslim women being injured or killed for NOT wearing a burka?

Why not find out on your own? I think it might stick that way.



.
I'm sure Gazza may very well know a muslim girl who knows a muslim imam who is moderate and told this girl it was her choice to whether to wear a head cover or not.

But that's not the picture that the woman who wrote this article presents. And she is not talking about Iran or Saudia Arabia either. According to the woman who wrote this article women in Turkey and throughout Europe are being forced by fear to wear them. She has lived in Turkey for several years, is opposed to banning the burka in principal but has seen how ugly the discrimination is for women first hand and thinks we should ban them even if it violates our principles because not banning them causes even more important principles to be violated. Hmm... do we take Gazza's experience or a woman living in the midst of this as truth? Maybe there is truth in both but I think what the woman has to say should carry more weight in the argument.

I wonder if anyone bothered to take the challenge of checking this out for themselves. The author claimed you could easily verify what she was saying by.....

If you believe these views are atypical of the Muslim community, spend five minutes in an Islamic chat room on the Internet. No need to cherry-pick; just Google “hijab” and look at the first results that come up. A typical entry:
What kind of dignity a non-believer has by the way; they conduct their life and expose themselves. They have removed the shield of protection, that modesty of Hijab and left themselves unprotected and that is the cause for the assault, which takes place once every ten seconds in rape and murder around the world. But those true Muslims who observe proper Hijab are protected from such assaults and not one [case of] this type is ever heard of.


Last edited by cirussell : 08-22-2010 at 08:22 PM.
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  #24  
Old 08-22-2010, 08:42 PM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
I'm sure Gazza may very well know a muslim girl who knows a muslim imam who is moderate and told this girl it was her choice to whether to wear a head cover or not.

But that's not the picture that the woman who wrote this article presents. And she is not talking about Iran or Saudia Arabia either. According to the woman who wrote this article women in Turkey and throughout Europe are being forced by fear to wear them. She has lived in Turkey for several years, is opposed to banning the burka in principal but has seen how ugly the discrimination is for women first hand and thinks we should ban them even if it violates our principles because not banning them causes even more important principles to be violated. Hmm... do we take Gazza's experience or a woman living in the midst of this as truth? Maybe there is truth in both but I think what the woman has to say should carry more weight in the argument.

I wonder if anyone bothered to take the challenge of checking this out for themselves. The author claimed you could easily verify what she was saying by.....

If you believe these views are atypical of the Muslim community, spend five minutes in an Islamic chat room on the Internet. No need to cherry-pick; just Google “hijab” and look at the first results that come up. A typical entry:
What kind of dignity a non-believer has by the way; they conduct their life and expose themselves. They have removed the shield of protection, that modesty of Hijab and left themselves unprotected and that is the cause for the assault, which takes place once every ten seconds in rape and murder around the world. But those true Muslims who observe proper Hijab are protected from such assaults and not one [case of] this type is ever heard of.


I don't believe that any of those posting in favor of sharia know ANY actual Muslims, or they would know that there is no stock answer, and that the 'laws' of islam and sharia are often carried out by the family-- regardless of the opinions of the local Imam.

Look--here is a thread detailing the results of these proceedings!




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  #25  
Old 08-22-2010, 11:48 PM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazza. View Post
You can dismiss my claims as a lie if you wish.

It makes no difference to me.

What is sad, though, is that while you are happy to champion the cause of oppressed Muslims the world over, you throw in glib remarks about what you believe and don't believe rather than actually get off your fat arse and ask the people who's cause you are leading how they see it...

I'll take those 50 links when you're ready...and please, no blogs or chatroom banter! Real news reports, if you please!


.

You really think this is funny?


Of course you are lying--any person who can read is able to rather quickly determine the assorted penalties meted out by men against Muslim women for not playing ball with the 'dress code'.

That is why I suggested that you look for yourself, because that way it might stick.

It is obvious that you have, like all liberals, weighed the perception of taking each side and have come down on the anti-woman side. You have determined that this position is more P.C., than simply declaring that you are against sharia law, which is designed to torture and torment them.

Having no understanding, or interest in, the concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' you have consulted your book of P.C in order to render your judgment--not sure where the book stands on your claimed ability to determine who is and isn't an actual Muslim, but no matter.

Here you are---blatantly lying.

So we won't pretend that you have any interest in the following information, because we KNOW, for a fact, that you are already aware of it.

Don't we?




Women targeted in Chechnya


Norway: Muslim girls beaten for not wearing the hijab


Iran Prosecutor Wants 74 Lashes to Women With Tight Clothes or Loose Hair


Muslim Teacher Banned from Class for Not Wearing Burka


and here it is live and in color...



and, just to brighten up your day...

UAE Jails Girl for Being Raped



This took all of 2 minutes...sure you can't pitch in? It's for YOUR education...




/
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Last edited by pwrone : 08-22-2010 at 11:51 PM.
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  #26  
Old 08-23-2010, 12:52 AM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
OK, I edited the post and made the font a little larger. You could also use the link I provided.

What are your thoughts on all of this?
Hi C,

Okay, here are my considered thoughts on this matter.

It's a subject that I have thought of often, and, I keep changing my mind. On one hand, I find ALL religous oritentated dress to be absurd. Nuns, priests, bishops, the way they have to dress up, it is just illogical, since dressing that way, it doesn't bring them any closer to their alleged 'god', and, even if a god exists (I don't believe in any, btw), I am quite sure that 'god' would not wish them to dress that way. Jesus himself, AFAIK, he didn't feel the need to dress up in a 'costume', for it was his actions and words that mattered, not what he wore.

I sometimes walk past women, here in my city, who are wearing the Burka, and it just seems insane - to me. I am not 'threatned' or 'afraid' by it, there are those who (for racist reasons), will attempt to feed into some sort of 'fear' (OMG - there could be 'anything' behind the Burka - *yes, a Muslim women's face). When I identify those types of people, I see them as 'false champions' of the women they want you to believe they are speaking out on behalf of, for, in reality, they are not interested in these women at all, they are merely using this as a way to create a stir, so I have no truck with those kinds of people (many of whom we see, on here).

However, there is no question in my mind that the Burka is a mysognistic symbol, and, over here, in the West, when I see a women dressed that way, I do feel genuine empathy for her, for while it is her choice, it is only a partial choice - a good test of this 'choice' would be if she woke up one morning, and she said to her husband 'To be honest, today, I am still going to be a Muslim, I just don't want to wear the Burka, anymore'. You would soon see how how real(or not) her freedom of choice was, were she to do that, I think.

So, I am really not sure what to do/think about this.

In theory, it would be best if the change came from within, as Tulip suggested, rather than impose a ban.

In practice?

In practice, it often takes a legal shift to pave the way for social change.

There are lots of examples, throughout history, in which, had it been left to 'change from within', the change would never have happened.

Would slave owners (for instance), would they have had a moment of clarity, and decided for themselves to abolish slavery, had the decision been left up to them? I don't think so. The change had to be imposed upon them, and, yes, there was massive resistance to that change, however, centuries on, we all now know that change was the ethically correct thing to do.

I really wish I was still in contact with the one Muslim that I was friendly with, a white British women who had converted to Islam. She really knew her stuff. She didn't wear the Burka, but she was really intelligent, and very balanced. I once showed her some posts by the alleged Muslim on here (Dawud), and she came to the conclusion that he was either fake (pretending to be Muslim, but not), or he was just a psycho, who happened to be Muslim. She would have given a great insight into this, but even if I could contact her now, I would never bring her on here, for the same reason that I would never invite a Muslim, Jew, or black person to join the Stormfront forum, they would (as do I), find much of what is written on this place to be stomach turning.

I hope that answers your question.


Steve
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  #27  
Old 08-23-2010, 01:46 AM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
Hi C,

Okay, here are my considered thoughts on this matter.

It's a subject that I have thought of often, and, I keep changing my mind. On one hand, I find ALL religous oritentated dress to be absurd. Nuns, priests, bishops, the way they have to dress up, it is just illogical, since dressing that way, it doesn't bring them any closer to their alleged 'god', and, even if a god exists (I don't believe in any, btw), I am quite sure that 'god' would not wish them to dress that way. Jesus himself, AFAIK, he didn't feel the need to dress up in a 'costume', for it was his actions and words that mattered, not what he wore.

I sometimes walk past women, here in my city, who are wearing the Burka, and it just seems insane - to me. I am not 'threatned' or 'afraid' by it, there are those who (for racist reasons), will attempt to feed into some sort of 'fear' (OMG - there could be 'anything' behind the Burka - *yes, a Muslim women's face). When I identify those types of people, I see them as 'false champions' of the women they want you to believe they are speaking out on behalf of, for, in reality, they are not interested in these women at all, they are merely using this as a way to create a stir, so I have no truck with those kinds of people (many of whom we see, on here).

However, there is no question in my mind that the Burka is a mysognistic symbol, and, over here, in the West, when I see a women dressed that way, I do feel genuine empathy for her, for while it is her choice, it is only a partial choice - a good test of this 'choice' would be if she woke up one morning, and she said to her husband 'To be honest, today, I am still going to be a Muslim, I just don't want to wear the Burka, anymore'. You would soon see how how real(or not) her freedom of choice was, were she to do that, I think.

So, I am really not sure what to do/think about this.

In theory, it would be best if the change came from within, as Tulip suggested, rather than impose a ban.

In practice?

In practice, it often takes a legal shift to pave the way for social change.

There are lots of examples, throughout history, in which, had it been left to 'change from within', the change would never have happened.

Would slave owners (for instance), would they have had a moment of clarity, and decided for themselves to abolish slavery, had the decision been left up to them? I don't think so. The change had to be imposed upon them, and, yes, there was massive resistance to that change, however, centuries on, we all now know that change was the ethically correct thing to do.

I really wish I was still in contact with the one Muslim that I was friendly with, a white British women who had converted to Islam. She really knew her stuff. She didn't wear the Burka, but she was really intelligent, and very balanced. I once showed her some posts by the alleged Muslim on here (Dawud), and she came to the conclusion that he was either fake (pretending to be Muslim, but not), or he was just a psycho, who happened to be Muslim. She would have given a great insight into this, but even if I could contact her now, I would never bring her on here, for the same reason that I would never invite a Muslim, Jew, or black person to join the Stormfront forum, they would (as do I), find much of what is written on this place to be stomach turning.

I hope that answers your question.


Steve
I agree with much of what you wrote. In essence, my only problem with the idea that sometimes you need to force the issue using the law, is that some women do genuinely want to wear it. I mean, they really do it seems. I cant say its a majority, I have no idea, I would guess not. But if some really do want to wear it, I am not inclined to say we can or should ban it.

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  #28  
Old 08-23-2010, 02:24 AM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
I agree with much of what you wrote. In essence, my only problem with the idea that sometimes you need to force the issue using the law, is that some women do genuinely want to wear it. I mean, they really do it seems. I cant say its a majority, I have no idea, I would guess not. But if some really do want to wear it, I am not inclined to say we can or should ban it.
Uh huh, but that depends on how we see the term 'want to wear it'.

There are sweatshops in third world nations, appalling conditions for workers, no health and safety, absurdly low wages, and all so that we here, in the West, can buy shit that we do not really need.

Some would claim that these workers 'want' those jobs.

However, if they had real choice, would these workers still really 'want' those jobs, if you see what I mean?

I say 'no'.
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  #29  
Old 08-23-2010, 02:33 AM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
Uh huh, but that depends on how we see the term 'want to wear it'.

There are sweatshops in third world nations, appalling conditions for workers, no health and safety, absurdly low wages, and all so that we here, in the West, can buy shit that we do not really need.

Some would claim that these workers 'want' those jobs.

However, if they had real choice, would these workers still really 'want' those jobs, if you see what I mean?

I say 'no'.
No, there are some Muslim women who DO want to wear various forms of burka. Minority? Probably. Are there many who do it because they are expected to? Absolutely. Forced to? Absolutely.

But there are some who say forcefully and publicly that they do want to wear it.

Dont confuse me saying someone should be allowed to, and someone should be forced to.

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  #30  
Old 08-23-2010, 03:05 AM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Dont confuse me saying someone should be allowed to, and someone should be forced to.
Eh??

Now it's me who is confused.

Anyway, it's all just more religous inspired bollocks, at the end of the day.

Any wonder that ALL of these crazy things, from the Burka, to wearing a crucifix (of a dead man, on a cross), to priests not being able to marry, to nuns not being able to have sex, are all utterly mad, crazy, and fucked up, when they are based on a collective delusion!

Yes, like me, you do think they are all nuts, however, I see that you want to defend 'religous freedoms' All religions? Or just the ancient one's?

How about if a group of people start a new religion, imporant to THEM, and, as part of their beleif system, and much the opposite to Islam, they wanted to celebrate the human form, and be permitted to walk down the street naked (not harming anyone, is it?), would you defend that religous freedom, as well? After all, you cannot defend one religous 'freedom', and not another - that would be discrimination, no?
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  #31  
Old 08-23-2010, 03:24 AM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post

Yes, like me, you do think they are all nuts, however, I see that you want to defend 'religous freedoms' All religions? Or just the ancient one's?

How about if a group of people start a new religion, imporant to THEM, and, as part of their beleif system, and much the opposite to Islam, they wanted to celebrate the human form, and be permitted to walk down the street naked (not harming anyone, is it?), would you defend that religous freedom, as well? After all, you cannot defend one religous 'freedom', and not another - that would be discrimination, no?
People can believe what they want. And they are entitled to do it, in matters of faith noone can say what is right or wrong for that person. Certainly not me. I dont believe in any such nonsense, but I defend peoples right to believe whatever they want as long as its legal and doesnt infringe on others.

So if someone wanted to start a religion walking about naked, legally I am sure they could only do it in the privacy of their own homes. Like anyone else walking about naked, they would be subject to the laws of the land.

Religious freedom doesnt trump the law.

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  #32  
Old 08-23-2010, 03:59 AM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
People can believe what they want. And they are entitled to do it, in matters of faith noone can say what is right or wrong for that person. Certainly not me. I dont believe in any such nonsense, but I defend peoples right to believe whatever they want as long as its legal and doesnt infringe on others.

So if someone wanted to start a religion walking about naked, legally I am sure they could only do it in the privacy of their own homes. Like anyone else walking about naked, they would be subject to the laws of the land.

Religious freedom doesnt trump the law.
Yes, people can believe what they want, lunatics do it all the time. But it is an interesting contradiction, don't you think? There is nothing shameful about the human body. Most religions seem to think that there is, esp Islam, which is why they are so fucking obssesional about covering up.

And you are right, religous freedom doesn't trump the law of the land, which logically means that France were right to ban the Burka, being that they introduced that law.
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  #33  
Old 08-23-2010, 04:57 AM
cirussell cirussell is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then View Post
Hi C,

Okay, here are my considered thoughts on this matter.

It's a subject that I have thought of often, and, I keep changing my mind. On one hand, I find ALL religous oritentated dress to be absurd. Nuns, priests, bishops, the way they have to dress up, it is just illogical, since dressing that way, it doesn't bring them any closer to their alleged 'god', and, even if a god exists (I don't believe in any, btw), I am quite sure that 'god' would not wish them to dress that way. Jesus himself, AFAIK, he didn't feel the need to dress up in a 'costume', for it was his actions and words that mattered, not what he wore.

I sometimes walk past women, here in my city, who are wearing the Burka, and it just seems insane - to me. I am not 'threatned' or 'afraid' by it, there are those who (for racist reasons), will attempt to feed into some sort of 'fear' (OMG - there could be 'anything' behind the Burka - *yes, a Muslim women's face). When I identify those types of people, I see them as 'false champions' of the women they want you to believe they are speaking out on behalf of, for, in reality, they are not interested in these women at all, they are merely using this as a way to create a stir, so I have no truck with those kinds of people (many of whom we see, on here).

However, there is no question in my mind that the Burka is a mysognistic symbol, and, over here, in the West, when I see a women dressed that way, I do feel genuine empathy for her, for while it is her choice, it is only a partial choice - a good test of this 'choice' would be if she woke up one morning, and she said to her husband 'To be honest, today, I am still going to be a Muslim, I just don't want to wear the Burka, anymore'. You would soon see how how real(or not) her freedom of choice was, were she to do that, I think.

So, I am really not sure what to do/think about this.

In theory, it would be best if the change came from within, as Tulip suggested, rather than impose a ban.

In practice?

In practice, it often takes a legal shift to pave the way for social change.

There are lots of examples, throughout history, in which, had it been left to 'change from within', the change would never have happened.

Would slave owners (for instance), would they have had a moment of clarity, and decided for themselves to abolish slavery, had the decision been left up to them? I don't think so. The change had to be imposed upon them, and, yes, there was massive resistance to that change, however, centuries on, we all now know that change was the ethically correct thing to do.

I really wish I was still in contact with the one Muslim that I was friendly with, a white British women who had converted to Islam. She really knew her stuff. She didn't wear the Burka, but she was really intelligent, and very balanced. I once showed her some posts by the alleged Muslim on here (Dawud), and she came to the conclusion that he was either fake (pretending to be Muslim, but not), or he was just a psycho, who happened to be Muslim. She would have given a great insight into this, but even if I could contact her now, I would never bring her on here, for the same reason that I would never invite a Muslim, Jew, or black person to join the Stormfront forum, they would (as do I), find much of what is written on this place to be stomach turning.

I hope that answers your question.


Steve
You've made some good points Steve. I'm pretty much with you on this.

In my opinion the civil rights of women take precedent over any religious freedom issues. If Sharia courts do not afford women the standing that they are required by our laws to have then they should not exist in our culture. Period. I don't care if they are only resolving civil matters. It is unacceptable for a women to have to stand in any court in my country without the full rights granted to her by our laws. Surely none of us disagree with that?

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  #34  
Old 08-23-2010, 05:06 AM
thistle thistle is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
You've made some good points Steve. I'm pretty much with you on this.

In my opinion the civil rights of women take precedent over any religious freedom issues. If Sharia courts do not afford women the standing that they are required by our laws to have then they should not exist in our culture. Period. I don't care if they are only resolving civil matters. It is unacceptable for a women to have to stand in any court in my country without the full rights granted to her by our laws. Surely none of us disagree with that?
Absolutely. Everything that goes on in such civil "courts" have to be legal.

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Old 08-23-2010, 05:25 AM
cirussell cirussell is offline
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by thistle View Post
Absolutely. Everything that goes on in such civil "courts" have to be legal.
Are you saying that women who resolve a dispute in a UK Sharia court have the same legal standing as a man? If that's true I'm with you that it's not a problem. However I seriously doubt that. Are there rules established by the government to insure that women have equal legal standing before these courts? Does the government moniter these courts in any way to insure this is the case? If so there is no problem.

I think the reality is that women do not have the same legal standing as men in these courts and the argument is that they are "voluntarily" subjecting themselves to second class citizenship. If that's the case it is simply not acceptable.


Last edited by cirussell : 08-23-2010 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 08-23-2010, 06:03 AM
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Re: Ban The Burka?

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Originally Posted by cirussell View Post
Are you saying that women who resolve a dispute in a UK Sharia court have the same legal standing as a man? .
AFAIK, yes they do.(Never fear, Pwrone will explode later, and tell you different, lol).

Slight change of theme here (sorry).

In the US, if a Jewish or Muslim person gets sent to prison, do the prison service cater for their dietary needs? (or the UK, for that matter, I just don't know..)

Do Jews get to eat Kosher food, and Muslims eat Halal?

If so, do you agree that they should be granted this right?

And, if you do agree that they should, then (using my hypothetical new religion), would it be discrimination if a few of us created a religion, in which we demanded that we be fed fois gras, but this was denied to us?
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