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  #1  
Old 01-28-2010, 06:33 AM
Textex Textex is offline
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The Amway Tool Scam

Let's kick off a thread devoted specifically to the ATS (Amway Tool Scam):

Amway is a scam, and here's why: Amway pays out as little money as they can get away with, so they support the higher level IBOs ripping off their downline via the ATS.

The ATS is composed of all the various products/services offered to IBOs by the upline, and include books, CDs, DVDs, various meetings, web sites, voice mail, etc. These tools are priced to produce profit that amounts to the Emeralds and above making several times more from the ATS than from Amway.

Couple this with encouraging IBOs to develop long distance groups, and the cost to travel and otherwise support these groups, and the expectation to "counsel" with the upline in person as the IBO's business grows, and the net profit level is at about the Platinum level, which means 75-150 downline IBOs operating at a net loss.

In addition, it is common for expenses of several thousands of dollars per year to attend the 3-4 "Major Functions", which are usually located several hundreds, if not thousands, of miles from where the IBO lives. The upline could easily issue different colored tickets, one for the LOS/LOA, and another for crossline IBOs, which would allow them to open the doors at the beginning of the sessions to address LOS/LOA specific information, and then open the doors to every ticket holder to cover more generic training, motivation, and entertainment aspects of the weekend. The LOS/LOA specific information can easily be covered for the crossline IBOs at their normal monthly seminars, after open meetings, etc.

As a result, about 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss, while the top 1% make several TIMES more from their Amway tool scam than from the Amway products.

Read about it on my blog, I suggest you start here: http://tiny.cc/D5oJh and forward the information to everyone you know, so they don't get scammed.

The end result is the Amway owners, the DeVos and Van Andel families, are multi-billionaires, because they don't have to pay out the amount of profit to make the LCKs (Lying Cowardly "Kingpins", generally defined as Emeralds and above) happy, because the LCKs are cleaning up on the tool scam. The LCKs also don't care about the product prices, because they merely preach 100% total loyalty towards their ATS and Amway products. Who loses in this scenario? The 99% of IBOs.

Questions?



Last edited by Textex : 01-28-2010 at 06:50 AM.
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  #2  
Old 01-29-2010, 12:57 AM
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ohein56 ohein56 is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

I hate to be the one to tell you, (not really!) but 75 views and no comments, I guess the Amway tool scam isn't the major crime-wave you thought it was!

Well, I take that back, you've got one comment now!

I figured you could use a 'bump'!

Hope it helps!

Kerry
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  #3  
Old 01-29-2010, 03:12 AM
Textex Textex is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohein56 View Post
I hate to be the one to tell you, (not really!) but 75 views and no comments, I guess the Amway tool scam isn't the major crime-wave you thought it was!

Well, I take that back, you've got one comment now!

I figured you could use a 'bump'!

Hope it helps!

Kerry
Kerry, you're a STUPID ASSHOLE! 75 views means up to 75 more people may have walked away from Amway, and the ATS (Amway Tool Scam), which is a good thing.

Perhaps I stated the scenario well, and no comments are necessary.

If the ATS isn't a "major crime-wave", please explain why it is illegal in the UK to make ANY ATS profit, and why, even with this and other drastic changes, Amway was still almost kicked out of the UK?

Your complete lack of concern about others being ripped of via the ATS is noted.

I don't need or want your stupid comments, if you have something to add to the conversation, feel free to "bump" this thread again. ASSHOLE! LOL!!!

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  #4  
Old 01-29-2010, 03:17 AM
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ChrisDoyle ChrisDoyle is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

I feel sorry for this thread....... so few views and comments, so I thought I'd leave a comment
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The musings of joecool44:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Thise links basically had comments that looks like it waas written by Amway IBO's.
About 10 minutes later:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Learn to read you fvcking moron. I never claimed those pages were from IBO's.
And he admits to changing people's posts!
Quote:
By the way, I only change links when people make personal (unsubstantiated) attacks on me. I find it works quite effectively when I employ that tactic.

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  #5  
Old 01-29-2010, 03:59 AM
Erneston Erneston is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Thanks for starting the thread, Tex.

Amway's long history of prosecution and litigation certainly seems to illustrate some of the pitfalls and drawbacks to the MLM business model, as well as some of the practices that have helped to give it the reputation it's increasingly acquiring, doesn't it?

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  #6  
Old 01-29-2010, 04:08 AM
Textex Textex is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisDoyle View Post
I feel sorry for this thread....... so few views and comments, so I thought I'd leave a comment
You don't need to feel sorry for this thread, it consists of a simple statement of facts. I consider 75 views in a few short hours as a lot. I would rather have fewer comments that are meaningful than a lot of BULLSHIT comments, as found on other threads.

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  #7  
Old 01-29-2010, 04:10 AM
Textex Textex is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erneston View Post
Thanks for starting the thread, Tex.

Amway's long history of prosecution and litigation certainly seems to illustrate some of the pitfalls and drawbacks to the MLM business model, as well as some of the practices that have helped to give it the reputation it's increasingly acquiring, doesn't it?
Yes, especially the recent UK litigation. There's nothing wrong with Amway's MLM model, the problem is the ATS (Amway Tool Scam) addition to the MLM business model.

Chris, that was an example of a comment that adds to the conversation, unlike YOUR comments.

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  #8  
Old 01-29-2010, 06:01 AM
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littleroundman littleroundman is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

The Amway Tool Scam becomes MORE of a scam when IBOs find out what happens to someone who attempts to bypass the "system" by organizing their own seminars for their own "team" or finding alternative sources for books, tapes and CDs for sale to their own team, even when they do so at cost.

What happens next makes a mockery of the concept of "residual income for life" and gives the affected IBOs an extremely clear understanding of the expression "plausible deniability" as practiced by Amways' upper management.
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  #9  
Old 01-29-2010, 06:15 AM
Textex Textex is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
The Amway Tool Scam becomes MORE of a scam when IBOs find out what happens to someone who attempts to bypass the "system" by organizing their own seminars for their own "team" or finding alternative sources for books, tapes and CDs for sale to their own team, even when they do so at cost.

What happens next makes a mockery of the concept of "residual income for life" and gives the affected IBOs an extremely clear understanding of the expression "plausible deniability" as practiced by Amways' upper management.
Yes, just ask Joe Morrison or the TIF group. Of course, if you suspend your ethical judgment for a minute, the upline behavior is perfectly understandable. Think about it, when someone like Morrison or TIF goes off and does their own thing (although I don't think either had reducing tool prices in mind, they just wanted a bigger share for themselves), the upline loses a large chunk of where 80+% of their profit comes from, and just imagine other groups noticing what is going on and doing the same thing, the LCK at the top would "suffer" tremendously. However, once this process starts, it is hard to stop it. Morrison and TIF probably would have been okay until THEIR downline decided to do the same to them, once they grow big enough. If there weren't tremendous amounts of profit coming from the ATS, there would be little to no incentive for such behavior, which would increase profitability for all IBOs, make the organizations much more stable, Amway's reputation more positive, etc., etc., etc.

By the way, there's another recent example of how the ATS causes incredible unethical behavior: http://exeagle.blogspot.com/


Last edited by Textex : 01-29-2010 at 06:17 AM.
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  #10  
Old 01-29-2010, 07:13 AM
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littleroundman littleroundman is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

I love this from the http://exeagle.blogspot.com/ site you posted:

Quote:
But your uplines are very particular about where you buy the book from. If these people are all for educating their people and do not care about their profits- why do they not let their people to buy books from sites like amzon.com, or loan the book for free from their local library? Why do they want the IBOs to buy these books only from the uplines. The reason they give you – is that it is not duplicatable. The uplines claim that you really can’t keep track of what books people are buying and reading, but if you order through upline, you know for sure what book people are ordering and in which subject they are being educated on. One thing the system and the uplines are very very good at is giving analogies and making everything sound so logical. I think some of these diamonds, who are supposedly free, spend their time to think about analogies that sound very logical to counter every opposition(?excuse from the IBOs).

Many of the books promoted in the system are available in Amazon for 1 cent- in system depending on the book it might cost anywhere between $7-$15. These same guys have a big issue if you spend a few bucks on a starbucks coffee or go watch a movie- but it is ok to pay the FULL PRICE, when it comes to the system.
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  #11  
Old 01-29-2010, 07:29 AM
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littleroundman littleroundman is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

BTW,

anyone who is wondering how on earth Amway and others can be held responsible for what appears to be the stupidity of members and former members might be interested in reading the updated 2007 version of psychologist Loiuse Samways' excellent 1994 book, Dangerous Persuaders, which is available as a free download in .pdf format here: download Dangerous Persuaders paying particular attention to the section on M.L.M./Amway on pages 37, 38 and 39
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  #12  
Old 01-29-2010, 07:43 AM
Textex Textex is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
I love this from the http://exeagle.blogspot.com/ site you posted:
Bingo! The advice from the upline almost always has some logic to it, but the advice also almost always has the intent to maximize ATS profit. They could easily sell the books for half the cost and still make some profit, as the books are bought by the case lot.

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  #13  
Old 01-29-2010, 07:49 AM
Textex Textex is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
BTW,

anyone who is wondering how on earth Amway and others can be held responsible for what appears to be the stupidity of members and former members might be interested in reading the updated 2007 version of psychologist Loiuse Samways' excellent 1994 book, Dangerous Persuaders, which is available as a free download in .pdf format here: download Dangerous Persuaders paying particular attention to the section on M.L.M./Amway on pages 37, 38 and 39
I prefer to describe the ATS as a business scam, a bait-and-switch operation. Calling it a cult is not only inaccurate (because it is more accurately described as lying), but makes you look like a kook. I don't need to read a story about kids blowing their brains out to get upset about the ATS.

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  #14  
Old 01-29-2010, 08:05 AM
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littleroundman littleroundman is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Textex View Post
I prefer to describe the ATS as a business scam, a bait-and-switch operation. Calling it a cult is not only inaccurate (because it is more accurately described as lying), but makes you look like a kook. I don't need to read a story about kids blowing their brains out to get upset about the ATS.
Geez,

I've read the book several times and I didn't read anything about "kids blowing out their brains"

What I DID read, however is a clear and concise explanation of how various "gurus, personal development course AND cults" operate.

The fact is, as Ms Samways so clearly points out, the techniques used by "gurus, personal development course, some religious organizations and some M.L.M. companies" are similar, if not identical.

Like it or not, many of the methods used by some companies (including Amway) are not accidental, but carefully researched and cleverly executed mind control techniques in action.

What explanation is there for how and why Amway Tool Scam not only exists, but continues to flourish, despite all the evidence available ???

Value for money ???

Guaranteed success ???

Accident ????

Well organized and executed manipulation ????
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  #15  
Old 01-29-2010, 09:22 AM
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ohein56 ohein56 is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Textex View Post
Kerry, you're a STUPID ASSHOLE! 75 views means up to 75 more people may have walked away from Amway, and the ATS (Amway Tool Scam), which is a good thing.
Maybe 2 people walked away from Amway. The other 73 walked away wondering what your problem is!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Textex View Post
Perhaps I stated the scenario well, and no comments are necessary.
Please....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Textex View Post
If the ATS isn't a "major crime-wave", please explain why it is illegal in the UK to make ANY ATS profit, and why, even with this and other drastic changes, Amway was still almost kicked out of the UK?
"ALMOST" only counts with Horse-Shoes & handgrenades. You know that, don't you?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Textex View Post
Your complete lack of concern about others being ripped of via the ATS is noted.
"Lack of concern"? I hate it when people get ripped off! The ATS, is a simple decision that very few people are faced with, and when they are, it's a simple matter of NOT PARTICIPATING in the tool offering!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Textex View Post
I don't need or want your stupid comments, if you have something to add to the conversation, feel free to "bump" this thread again. ASSHOLE! LOL!!!
Oh my!!

It looks like someone clearly got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!

Good luck to you wit dat!

Thanks for helping to put a little extra spring in my step today!

Hope you didn't blow a gasket.

You're obsessed!

I see LRM & Ernie have joined in.

Perfect! Narrow minds think alike.

Knock yourselves out. I'm not sure what you three will accomplish together, but whatever it is I hope you have fun together!

One last bump from me, and I'll be on my way!

Kerry Hein
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  #16  
Old 01-29-2010, 09:53 AM
Textex Textex is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
Geez,

I've read the book several times and I didn't read anything about "kids blowing out their brains"

What I DID read, however is a clear and concise explanation of how various "gurus, personal development course AND cults" operate.

The fact is, as Ms Samways so clearly points out, the techniques used by "gurus, personal development course, some religious organizations and some M.L.M. companies" are similar, if not identical.

Like it or not, many of the methods used by some companies (including Amway) are not accidental, but carefully researched and cleverly executed mind control techniques in action.

What explanation is there for how and why Amway Tool Scam not only exists, but continues to flourish, despite all the evidence available ???

Value for money ???

Guaranteed success ???

Accident ????

Well organized and executed manipulation ????
Look at the Dedication, on page iii. The Amway LCKs make use of various mainstream authors, such as Stephen Covey, "7 Habits of Highly Effective People", among others. You could take most, if not all, of the elements identified as a cult, and the same things apply to a sports team, traditional business sales team, dedicated church members, etc., etc., etc. At the center of the ATS is the LIE about where the upline makes their money. By the way, I believe the ATS is in BIG trouble, when you consider the UK ruling, the shrinking business in the U.S., etc. Without Amway volume, there's not enough people buying tools, so more people leave, and on and on it goes, until either Amway does the right thing or they wait for the FTC to slam them.

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  #17  
Old 01-29-2010, 10:00 AM
Textex Textex is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohein56 View Post
Maybe 2 people walked away from Amway. The other 73 walked away wondering what your problem is! ---- Maybe, maybe not.

Please.... ---- I didn't see you come up with any meaningful comment/question.

"ALMOST" only counts with Horse-Shoes & handgrenades. You know that, don't you?! ---- Amway didn't NEED to get booted to get bad publicity and the ATS further exposed. That is progress, however incomplete it is at this time.

"Lack of concern"? I hate it when people get ripped off! The ATS, is a simple decision that very few people are faced with, and when they are, it's a simple matter of NOT PARTICIPATING in the tool offering! ---- Good, then stop the stupid posts! It's not as simple a decision as you suggest. The ATS is HEAVILY promoted as the shortcut, foolproof, just follow it and success will flow in, etc.

Oh my!! ---- Didn't seem to work! LOL

It looks like someone clearly got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning! ---- No, I just don't want your stupid comments.

Good luck to you wit dat! ---- Thanks.

Thanks for helping to put a little extra spring in my step today! ---- You're welcome. You're clueless, but I knew that already.

Hope you didn't blow a gasket. ---- No, just let off some steam, you IDIOT. LOL

You're obsessed! ---- You're STUPID!!! LOL

I see LRM & Ernie have joined in. ---- Good, they can't be worse than YOU! LOL

Perfect! Narrow minds think alike. ---- So do stupid minds. LOL

Knock yourselves out. ---- I'd rather knock you out (metaphorically speaking, of course). LOL

I'm not sure what you three will accomplish together, but whatever it is I hope you have fun together! ---- I'm sure it will be more fun than your posts.

One last bump from me, and I'll be on my way! ---- Don't let the door hit you in the ASS on your way out the door! LOL

Kerry Hein
See comments embedded above, after the dashes.

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  #18  
Old 01-29-2010, 10:16 AM
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IBOFightBack IBOFightBack is offline
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Re: The Amway Tool Scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erneston View Post
Thanks for starting the thread, Tex.

Amway's long history of prosecution and litigation certainly seems to illustrate some of the pitfalls and drawbacks to the MLM business model, as well as some of the practices that have helped to give it the reputation it's increasingly acquiring, doesn't it?
How to you come to this conclusion? If I check on Pacer for court cases from Jan 1, 2000 to Jan 1, 2010 -

Nordstroms Inc has been involved in 150 cases

Office Depot Inc has been involved in 259 cases

Amway Corporation/Quixtar has been involved in 114 cases.

These are all similiar sized companies in terms of revenues ($8 to 10 billion)
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