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  #19  
Old 11-04-2009, 11:08 AM
calvinandhobbes calvinandhobbes is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverthorn View Post
petition is for awareness, and an attempt to shutdown the company. It's not likely but it's a start and anything helps, so without over analyzing, the goal is to get as many people educated and to sign the petition.

what's not to get
we are a nation of laws. we don't get to enforce our will on others unless there is a violation of a law. if a company is legal, they shouldn't be shut down by the government. if 75% of a nation wants a legal company shut down, they need to change the law to be illegal. if the company changes and complies with the new law, they shouldn't be shut down.

saying you want amway shut down despite legal compliance is like me saying the government should yank your internet priveledges because of the username you use. it doesn't make any sense.

governments are supposed to act based on law, not opinion polls (which is a closer description of this petition).

again, you need to be telling telling the FTC why Amway isn't complying with some sort of law, or tell congress (state or federal) how to change the law to make them illegal and for what reason.



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  #20  
Old 11-04-2009, 11:16 AM
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IBOFightBack IBOFightBack is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by char View Post
Just because they have retail products to sell doesn't make them legal. They actually must have people to sell to outside the program to make it legal.
This is false.

Quote:
Otherwise, it's just people in the system buying and using their own products and getting paid which I believe is determined to be a pyramid and illegal.
No, an illegal pyramid is when you get paid for getting people to join. If people are buying legitimate products they legitimately want then it's fine.

Quote:
There is no way much of their reported retail sales are real.
The company is public in a number of markets. It's figures are accepted by market monitoring companies such as Euromonitor as well as of course Forbes Magazine and others. Amway pays out around 32% of all revenues. If their reported sales are NOT what they claim, then that percentage must be higher. Are you seriously claiming a company can survive more than 50 years lying about their revenues but still managing to pay out all this commission money? Seriously?

Quote:
If they were, you should basically consider yourself a soap salesman going door to door because how else would all these people be buying your soap.
Amway hasn't been a "soap company" in decades. It still sells some of the best cleaning products in the world, but it's main brands are Nutrilite (the biggest selling nutrition brand in the world) and Artistry (one of the top 5 best selling cosmetics brands)

Quote:
And the ironic thing is, if they do like your soap, they will inevitably get asked to join in the downline because that's how you get the big bucks so they say.
No, in fact if you were buying the soap off an IBO, and then join in their downline to buy the soap, you get the soap 30% cheaper and the IBO *loses* money. The reason why he may want to recruit you is because then you may refer people and customers and increase overall sales volume.

Quote:
But then you've just lost your retail customer which if vital to keep it legal.
Please read MYTH: It's a pyramid if most products are bought by ibos

Quote:
Point is many distributors fudge the numbers to make it look like they have enough retail customers.
IBOs (dsitributors) purchasing goods for their own use *are* retail customers. A retail sale is a sale to an end user. An IBO buying soap for his own use is making a retail purchase.

Sales to clients outside of the network are not necessary for legality. What they do is provide evidence that the products are legitimate products at a legitimate price. Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of Amway products are purchased by non-distributors, clearly showing their legitimacy. Of course, people who like them a lot are free to register and get them at distributor pricing, and many do.
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  #21  
Old 11-04-2009, 11:39 AM
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ChrisDoyle ChrisDoyle is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Hi IBOFightback. Good to see someone else with actual knowledge of MLM on here; there's not many of us!
I've been posting on here about why distributor purchases can be counted as retail sales, but i'm afraid many don't get it.
Good luck with it anyway.
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The musings of joecool44:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Thise links basically had comments that looks like it waas written by Amway IBO's.
About 10 minutes later:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Learn to read you fvcking moron. I never claimed those pages were from IBO's.
And he admits to changing people's posts!
Quote:
By the way, I only change links when people make personal (unsubstantiated) attacks on me. I find it works quite effectively when I employ that tactic.




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  #22  
Old 11-04-2009, 12:47 PM
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char char is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Got to give the guy credit for putting the typical MLM spin on my post.

How about we just let the numbers and experiences speak for themselves?

Isn't the average income in Amway about 116 a year?!!

Mention Amway to 9 out of 10 people and they run for the hills!!

Are you telling me that if only a distributor of the company uses the stuff, and pays more for a product (even @ 30% off), and only makes money by recruiting downline, that that's not a pyramid?

Mind giving me your definition of what makes a pyramid? Not a ponzi, a pyramid scheme.


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  #23  
Old 11-04-2009, 01:06 PM
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IBOFightBack IBOFightBack is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by char View Post
Isn't the average income in Amway about 116 a year?!!
$115/month back in 2005. Stats haven't been updated for a while.

You've gotta admit that's a pretty damn impressive income for the amount of the work the average Amway member does!

Quote:
Mention Amway to 9 out of 10 people and they run for the hills!!
That's not my experience, but having encountered my fair share of Amway idiots, I can understand why some would have that reaction.

Quote:
Are you telling me that if only a distributor of the company uses the stuff, and pays more for a product (even @ 30% off), and only makes money by recruiting downline, that that's not a pyramid?
"pays more for a product" than what?

Again, to be clear, to be considered an illegal pyramid scheme there must be payments for recruiting or some kind of defacto payment for recruiting. What scams claiming to be legitimate MLMs will do is have some huge product loading (possibly of an entirely bogus product) required when you join, and this is thus a "defacto" payment for recruiting. A number of companies have been shut down by the FTC for this, the classic case being Equinox International.

If people are purchasing products not because they actually see value in the products, but because they think they'll miraculously get rich by purchasing products they don't want and trying to convince others to do the same, then strictly speaking it's not a pyramid scheme, but it is a fraud. If there's product purchase at the time of joining (usual) then it will be a pyramid scheme.

Thus with something like Amway, if you like the products and find them of value, join to buy them cheaper and then promote this to others who do the same thing, then it's all perfectly legal and ethical - intent matters.

Another person could buy the exact same products, but not find them of value, but buy them and promote them anyway because they think it will make them rich, and recruit others to do the same. In this case it could be considered a pyramid scheme. Amway kicked out a significantly sized group a couple of years ago for fears this is exactly what they were doing.

Quote:
Mind giving me your definition of what makes a pyramid? Not a ponzi, a pyramid scheme.
See above. The sine qua non of a pyramid scheme is getting paid for recruiting (see webster v omnitrition). To be a pyramid scheme there's got to be payments for recruiting. You can still be illegal without that, but you're not a pyramid scheme.

Note: while in my opinion an entirely "internal consumption" network is perfectly legal and ethical, I don't consider it smart business, for a variety of reasons.
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  #24  
Old 11-04-2009, 01:47 PM
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ohein56 ohein56 is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owninator View Post
ohein....if you actually think amway/quixstar is a "good" business to get involved with, i suggest you leave scam.com

Leave with your head hung in shame....
Good or bad is not the issue. That's a personal choice.

Calling Amway "barely legal" is.

It's the same as calling McDonald's barely legal, cause it's Franchising!

Just callin em as I see um!
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  #25  
Old 11-04-2009, 01:47 PM
char's Avatar
char char is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

What is the average IBO income stat for 2008? Just curious?

I agree with some of the things you said and the reason most buy Amway products is to get rich. There are a few dribs and drabs but if you're not in Amway, that person is going to go to the grocery store or Sam's etc. and get their stuff - Plain and simple.


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  #26  
Old 11-04-2009, 02:00 PM
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ohein56 ohein56 is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by IBOFightBack View Post
This is false.



No, an illegal pyramid is when you get paid for getting people to join. If people are buying legitimate products they legitimately want then it's fine.



The company is public in a number of markets. It's figures are accepted by market monitoring companies such as Euromonitor as well as of course Forbes Magazine and others. Amway pays out around 32% of all revenues. If their reported sales are NOT what they claim, then that percentage must be higher. Are you seriously claiming a company can survive more than 50 years lying about their revenues but still managing to pay out all this commission money? Seriously?



Amway hasn't been a "soap company" in decades. It still sells some of the best cleaning products in the world, but it's main brands are Nutrilite (the biggest selling nutrition brand in the world) and Artistry (one of the top 5 best selling cosmetics brands)



No, in fact if you were buying the soap off an IBO, and then join in their downline to buy the soap, you get the soap 30% cheaper and the IBO *loses* money. The reason why he may want to recruit you is because then you may refer people and customers and increase overall sales volume.



Please read MYTH: It's a pyramid if most products are bought by ibos



IBOs (dsitributors) purchasing goods for their own use *are* retail customers. A retail sale is a sale to an end user. An IBO buying soap for his own use is making a retail purchase.

Sales to clients outside of the network are not necessary for legality. What they do is provide evidence that the products are legitimate products at a legitimate price. Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of Amway products are purchased by non-distributors, clearly showing their legitimacy. Of course, people who like them a lot are free to register and get them at distributor pricing, and many do.
Welcome to the forum!

I look forward to more of your insights, especially one's involving some of our favorite anti-MLM nuts around here!

Just to give you a small heads-up, SoapBoxMom, CalvinandHobbes, FastMoney, DocBunkum, SepticAL, Put it out There Baby, & a few others have been waiting in the wings for you, I believe. They have an interesting 'spin' on your implications.

Again, Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for posting.

Kerry
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Armed neutrality makes it much easier to detect hypocrisy.
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  #27  
Old 11-04-2009, 02:01 PM
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IBOFightBack IBOFightBack is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by char View Post
What is the average IBO income stat for 2008? Just curious?
Hasn't been released. They normally do it every 5 years or so. There's been a lot of changes in the north american business the last few years, it may be a couple more years before it settles down enough to get reasonable statistics.

Not that things like "average income" are useful for a group such as all IBOs are all active IBOs. The population is too hetrogenous and the distribution is not even close to normal, which makes "average" a meaningless, indeed misleading statistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by char View Post
I agree with some of the things you said and the reason most buy Amway products is to get rich. There are a few dribs and drabs but if you're not in Amway, that person is going to go to the grocery store or Sam's etc. and get their stuff - Plain and simple.
Amway's two major brand lines are Nutrilite and Artistry. Nutrilite has no real competitors and can't be found anywhere but through Amway. Artistry's competitors are the likes of Estee Lauder, Clinique, Shisedo. They can't be found at your local grocery store or Sam's club, and when you can find them you'll find Artistry is cheaper.

This is the advantage of the model. If I can get a person to try the products, and they like them, they can't get them from anywhere else and I earn a percentage as long as they keep purchasing. I've got folk I haven't spoken to in a decade still regularly buying Amway stuff off the website because they love it and can't get it anywhere else.

Amway's products have won consumer awards all around the world, they're not the cheapest in the world, what they are is excellent quality and great value for money.
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  #28  
Old 11-04-2009, 02:04 PM
IBOFightBack's Avatar
IBOFightBack IBOFightBack is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohein56 View Post
Welcome to the forum!

I look forward to more of your insights, especially one's involving some of our favorite anti-MLM nuts around here!

Just to give you a small heads-up, SoapBoxMom, CalvinandHobbes, FastMoney, DocBunkum, SepticAL, Put it out There Baby, & a few others have been waiting in the wings for you, I believe. They have an interesting 'spin' on your implications.

Again, Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for posting.

Kerry
Thanks Kerry. I doubt they've got anything new to say that hasn't been debunked a million times before. It's impossible to change the cult-like, brainwashed beliefs of these anti-MLM zealots, no matter what facts you provide, but it's usually entertaining!
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  #29  
Old 11-04-2009, 02:15 PM
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ohein56 ohein56 is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by IBOFightBack View Post
Thanks Kerry. I doubt they've got anything new to say that hasn't been debunked a million times before. It's impossible to change the cult-like, brainwashed beliefs of these anti-MLM zealots, no matter what facts you provide, but it's usually entertaining!
Up to a certain point, then it just gets, ...."smelly".

It get's 'stifling', for lack of a better word.

The pure hatred & disdain gets very tiresome.

Watch out for that list of kooks, they'll drag you down to their level fast if you let em, and you'll find yourself slingin' the shit just as hard & angry as they do.

Have fun! (but give it to em with both barrels!)

Welcome to the fray!

Kerry
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Armed neutrality makes it much easier to detect hypocrisy.
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BEWARE:Joecool44, aka 'joecool', anti-MLM fanatic, Trolls here anonymously!!
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  #30  
Old 11-05-2009, 06:10 AM
calvinandhobbes calvinandhobbes is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohein56 View Post
Good or bad is not the issue. That's a personal choice.

Calling Amway "barely legal" is.

It's the same as calling McDonald's barely legal, cause it's Franchising!

Just callin em as I see um!
try opening your eyes first. barely legal surely applies to amway far more than McD's as McD's didn't go through a lengthy court fight to stay in business that resulted in making concessions (read: changes) to their business to avoid court actions.

McD's has never been exposed for having 75% of earnings come from training distributors rather than product sales....Amway's posterboy has been exposed for that.

from the start of this thread, I've questioned the pettition since there needs to be actual laws in place to shut down a company....but the obvious reality of the situation is that Amway is a heck of a lot closer to the line between legal and illegal than McD's ever has been with regard to their business model. (coffee temperature maybe, but not the business model ).


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  #31  
Old 11-05-2009, 06:13 AM
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ChrisDoyle ChrisDoyle is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvinandhobbes View Post
try opening your eyes first. barely legal surely applies to amway far more than McD's as McD's didn't go through a lengthy court fight to stay in business that resulted in making concessions (read: changes) to their business to avoid court actions.

McD's has never been exposed for having 75% of earnings come from training distributors rather than product sales....Amway's posterboy has been exposed for that.

from the start of this thread, I've questioned the pettition since there needs to be actual laws in place to shut down a company....but the obvious reality of the situation is that Amway is a heck of a lot closer to the line between legal and illegal than McD's ever has been with regard to their business model. (coffee temperature maybe, but not the business model ).
You may want to rethink your statement cal, when you do a bit of research into the early days of franchising and how close it came to being ''illegal''.
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The musings of joecool44:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Thise links basically had comments that looks like it waas written by Amway IBO's.
About 10 minutes later:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Learn to read you fvcking moron. I never claimed those pages were from IBO's.
And he admits to changing people's posts!
Quote:
By the way, I only change links when people make personal (unsubstantiated) attacks on me. I find it works quite effectively when I employ that tactic.


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  #32  
Old 11-05-2009, 06:46 AM
calvinandhobbes calvinandhobbes is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisDoyle View Post
You may want to rethink your statement cal, when you do a bit of research into the early days of franchising and how close it came to being ''illegal''.
you like to say things like this.... stuff that sounds good to the causal reader, but when you really think about it, it's way off the mark. Franchises were "almost" illegal because the government looked at enacting laws to make them illegal, but they didn't, and the model became a huge part of the american economy (orders of magnitude bigger than MLM). In Amway's case (along with other MLM's), they had to change their practices to comply with actual laws. Huge difference. Legal compliance is relative to actual laws, not proposed laws.


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  #33  
Old 11-05-2009, 07:17 AM
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dr poormouth dr poormouth is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohein56 View Post
Have fun! (but give it to em with both barrels!)

Welcome to the fray!

Kerry
Is there an MLM for guns?
If not, why not? Seems a perfect fit to the anti-corporate, anti-government, rugged individualist profile of the "average" MLMer.

What would be the auto-ship minimum, and would it be just ammo, or ammo, combined with cleaning and re-loading supplies?


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  #34  
Old 11-05-2009, 07:22 AM
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ChrisDoyle ChrisDoyle is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvinandhobbes View Post
you like to say things like this.... stuff that sounds good to the causal reader, but when you really think about it, it's way off the mark. Franchises were "almost" illegal because the government looked at enacting laws to make them illegal, but they didn't, and the model became a huge part of the american economy (orders of magnitude bigger than MLM). In Amway's case (along with other MLM's), they had to change their practices to comply with actual laws. Huge difference. Legal compliance is relative to actual laws, not proposed laws.
So, if they went ahead and did that, how are they ''barely legal'' now?

What exactly is the legal definition of ''barely legal''?
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The musings of joecool44:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Thise links basically had comments that looks like it waas written by Amway IBO's.
About 10 minutes later:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Learn to read you fvcking moron. I never claimed those pages were from IBO's.
And he admits to changing people's posts!
Quote:
By the way, I only change links when people make personal (unsubstantiated) attacks on me. I find it works quite effectively when I employ that tactic.


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  #35  
Old 11-05-2009, 07:23 AM
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ChrisDoyle ChrisDoyle is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr poormouth View Post
Is there an MLM for guns?
If not, why not? Seems a perfect fit to the anti-corporate, anti-government, rugged individualist profile of the "average" MLMer.

What would be the auto-ship minimum, and would it be just ammo, or ammo, combined with cleaning and re-loading supplies?
Mine's an AK47.... the choice of The Rebel.
__________________
The musings of joecool44:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Thise links basically had comments that looks like it waas written by Amway IBO's.
About 10 minutes later:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44
Learn to read you fvcking moron. I never claimed those pages were from IBO's.
And he admits to changing people's posts!
Quote:
By the way, I only change links when people make personal (unsubstantiated) attacks on me. I find it works quite effectively when I employ that tactic.


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  #36  
Old 11-05-2009, 07:42 AM
Silverthorn Silverthorn is offline
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Re: Amway/Quixtar Petition Against - Please help S

Thanks calvinandhobbes. After reading merchants of deception, it looks like Amway is breaking the law as their primary source of income is based on the tapes, conferences, seminars, books that they sell to their DOWNLINES.

Convincing the government/FTC to do something about it is somethign different.

This company is the most calculated fraud/scam that is still going on - promising millionaires to those that work hard which will never come

And teh facts are 99% of people who join Amway lose. The reply that is given is "business investments cost money and time". IMO, you have a better chance of inventing a product that you believe works and showing YOUR real product to thousands of people, rather than purchasing expensive products from Amway and begging others to do what you're doing so that you can get a commission out of it.

You should never pay to have a job EVER. You should not be forced to attend conferences and pay $500. I worked for a huge company and they would pay me for bus rides to conferences, sitting in on conferences. I devoted time and got paid an hourly wage and was never forced to purchase books and tapes. If they wanted me to listen to tapes and read their books, they gave it to me for free and gave me the option of

Amway says it's not required but the "uplines" will say it's essential

Lawyers can easily build cases. calvinandhobbes - the government can easily make what Amway does illegal just from the primary source of income is from the peopel you recruit and not from the products itself.

It's a calculated fraud/scam. Even the "diamonds" (who are those that move about $100,000 in goods from them and THEIR downline distributors) LOSE money throughout the year, or make very little... based on having to attend "mandatory" seminars..

It's a cult and is growing because many people are falling into the scam and the FTC or government are not doing anything about it.

Anyways, China has banned Amway (I believe) and UK is continuing to fight to get rid of Amway. (Amway has dropped prices 50% there, banned selling of tools/books to other distributors, and more)..

I guess if you're a sucker you'll fall into it and there's pretty much nothign being done at this time

--

5 years to release average incomes?

Read Merchants of Deception from a guy who reached the top of the ranks.

He sponsored 10,000 people altogether and said he can only count TEN PEOPLE out of all of them that made OVER ONE DOLLAR A YEAR. The rest were LOSING

You'd wonder why they don't release average incomes.

Amway needs to die... I'm no lawyer or politician.. and I know there is a movement, but as long as the company is around, 99% of the people tehre will be fooled into staying and lose a lot of money for somethign they have ZERO chance of succeeding at




Last edited by Silverthorn : 11-05-2009 at 07:51 AM.
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