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  #1  
Old 10-22-2009, 04:25 PM
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sojustask sojustask is offline
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Mind the Gap

If you've ever traveled the London underground you're familiar with the warning at each stop that you, "Mind the gap." Every news article that deals with economy should start and finish with the same warning, "Mind the gap."

The gap, in this case isn't the small gap between train and platform, but the yawning, gaping and growing gap between whatever the hell is happening on Wall Street and the continuing grim realities on Main Street.

What's up with that?

Well, it's pretty damn simple, actually.

You and your neighbors would be "recovering" from the financial collapse too if, nine months ago, a rich uncle propped you up with a grub stake of, oh let's say, around $12 trillion. (Some say it's more than twice that actually when all federal guarantees are added in.)

But, instead of using all that dough and government credits to create jobs Uncle Sam decided to use it to prop up the very financial sector that caused the meltdown to begin with.

Why? Oh man, don't go there. Don't even get me started on that one.

The point is it's the reason why Wall Streeters and big bankers living large again and assuring us "Nothing to see here, move along, it's all over folks, move on."

Well, there is "nothing to see," thanks to trillions upon trillions of your tax dollars. Well, not YOUR tax dollars, per se, but your kid's and grand kid's and great grand kid's tax dollars.

Did we hear a "thank you?" No. All we've gotten in return out of those guys we propped up is higher credit card rates, lower credit limits, millions of foreclosures, and demands that we leave them alone.

Just imagine what the economy would look like today if all that government money, guaranteed credit lines, bad asset absorption and tax breaks -- $12 to $27 trillion in all -- had instead been pumped into jobs - private and public works -- and owner-operated small businesses? Wages would be flowing in working families pockets, and their bank accounts. (That's how banks are supposed to get their capital. It's called "deposits.") Companies would have reaped the benefits of increased consumer spending, showing profits and hiring more workers. Wall Street would in turn prosper as investors sought a piece of that growing action by buying stock in profitable companies. (That's kinda how the stock market is supposed to operate.)

Anyway, that's not what was done and now we have tens of trillions of present dollars, borrowed dollars and future dollars pissed away, just like that.

Remember that the next time you hear someone in Washington wringing their hands over the relatively puny $85 billion annual cost of health care reform, including a public option.

All I can say is the people who made those decisions, regardless of party affiliation, should give thanks nightly to the fact that the only guillotines around these days are in museums.

Here's a breakdown of the bailout the NY Times did back in Feb.

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  #2  
Old 10-22-2009, 05:29 PM
put it out there baby put it out there baby is offline
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Re: Mind the Gap

This is an excellent post and why most Americans did not agree with the bailouts. Any intelligent person would also see a problem in the government owning private corporations and financial institutions. Yet that is exactly what has happened here.

The ideal bailout is not a bailout of reckless financiers. It's like the government equivalent of a hospice for dying companies, involving no taxpayer money and no moral hazard. And the people who behaved recklessly, they get their comeuppance.

The most egregious bailout, that's a tossup between Citigroup and AIG. I think AIG was worse just because it involved so much money. And there's no way we're going to see all of that back. It will end up being the greatest theft in history.

It's conventional wisdom on Wall Street that the government made a mistake in letting Lehman Brothers collapse last September. But some people think the real mistake was rescuing Bear Stearns a few months earlier, since that led Lehman to expect a rescue.

Goldman Sachs ended up with just about the best deal of all. Not just the $10 billion federal bailout, which it paid back, but all that extra money from the AIG bailout. It's astonishing that Goldman Sachs walked away with what they did. As an AIG counterparty, they got $13 billion from the AIG bailout. That's on top of the $5.9 billion they grabbed on the eve of AIG's collapse. It's just so egregious.

I doubt that a dime will ever be recovered/paid back by:
AIG (total bailout received: $85 billion), Chrysler ($14.9 billion), CIT Group Inc. ($2.3 billion), Citigroup ($45 billion). General Motors ($50.7 billion),
GMAC ($12.5 billion), Marshall & Ilsley Corp. ($1.7 billion),
Regions Financial Corp. ($3.5 billion), or
Zions Bank Corp. ($1.4 billion).

How has the life of the average American become any better after these bailouts? It hasn't. For most Americans their lives are even worse financially.

Estimates now are that the housing industry may take two decades to see a return to health.

I read a recent poll recently that showed that 54% of American now fear losing their jobs. That is more than twice as high as a simliar poll that was done last year. 82% claim to know someone, a friend or relative or neighbor, that has lost their job in the last year! 74% of Americans are worried about paying their bills and being able to keep up. 56% thought the bailouts had no real effect and 34% thought the bailouts had made things even worse.

The umemployment figures are actually much more staggering than are reported as well since they do not included people who have fallen off the radar or were never there to begin with. Employees who have had their hours cut, employees who were working full-time and reduced to part time, employees who were Independent Contrcators and thereby not entitiled to any unemployment benefits, those who received unemployment and still have not found work, yet their unemployment benefits have run out, people who decided to quit trying to find a job after months of searching and are living off their meager savings, hoping they can last til Social Security sets in, those who took an un-timely and early retirement that they never planed on because the writing was already on the wall or they were forced to do so, those who may work under the table, such as housekeepers, or child care workers, etc. I believe the true numbers will never be known to the public and are far, far worse and many percentage points higher than ever reported.

Let's face a historical truth: we have never really had a free market. We have had government intervention in the economy, and indeed that intervention has been welcomed by the captains of finance and industry. These titans of wealth hypocritically warned against "big government" but only when government threatened to regulate their activities or when it contemplated passing some of the nation's wealth on to the neediest people. They had no quarrel with big government when it served their own greedy needs did they?

How about a bailout for the middle class in this country and not Wall Street or other financial institutions or big corporations whose CEO make billions for themselves while running their companies in a haphazard and inept fashion while screwing over their employess and the public at large?

A simple and powerful alternative would be to take that huge sum of money, $700 billion, and give it directly to the people who need it. Let the government declare a moratorium on foreclosures and help homeowners pay off their mortgages. Create a federal jobs program to guarantee work to people who want and need jobs.

We have a historic and successful precedent. The government in the early days of the New Deal put millions of people to work rebuilding the nation's infrastructure. Hundreds of thousands of young people, instead of joining the army to escape poverty, joined the Civil Conservation Corps, which built bridges and highways, cleaned up harbors and rivers.

Thousands of artists, musicians and writers were employed by the WPA's arts programs to paint murals, produce plays, write symphonies. The New Deal (defying the cries of "socialism") established Social Security, which, along with the GI Bill, became a model for what government could do to help its people.

What is the governement doing now besides raising our taxes and various fees on a County, State and Federal level, and putting our children's grandchildren in debt? We have ceased to be an ecomony of manufacturing and goods production and agriculture production and have been reduced to an economy of services and consumerism. But now there are fewer consumers and fewer services to sell.

Neil Barofsky is the man who tracks the historic bailout known as the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP. The 39-year-old special inspector general monitors a dozen separate bailout-related programs that now account for nearly $3 trillion in financial commitments. A former federal prosecutor, Barofsky has subpoena power and has launched about three dozen investigations since being named to the post in December 2008. In an audit released in July 2009, Barofsky made clear that he was intent on demanding transparency from all quarters -- including the U.S. Treasury. His next audit is due in October. During an interview with the Huffington Post Investigative Fund, Barofsky made some striking observations. Among them were:

1. He found hundreds of banks capable of tracking their use of the TARP money - despite claims by the U.S. Treasury that the task was impossible.

2. If the purpose of the TARP rescue was to increase lending, it has failed.

3. The U.S. financial system, now dependent on bigger and fewer banks, is shakier than ever.

Well isn't that fucking happy news!

The idea was that banks were going to help consumers get lines of credit, keep interest rates on loans and credit cards low, get small business loans, make it easier to refinance a mortage, etc. Has any of this happened for any consumer? No it has not. The banks clammed up but took the Tarp monies. Oh wait, dozens of banks leant the damn Tarp monies to several foreign banks at high interest rates and made money off the Tarp funds!!! When the Feds wanted an accounting, these same banks gladly returned the Tarp money or offered to. Afterall, they had already made fortunes in interest off of it!

What nickel of this money has trickled down to Americans? What jobs have been created?? Wasn't that the promise?




Last edited by put it out there baby : 10-22-2009 at 05:34 PM.
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  #3  
Old 10-22-2009, 06:33 PM
zeitgeist1969 zeitgeist1969 is offline
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Re: Mind the Gap

Quote:
Originally Posted by put it out there baby View Post
This is an excellent post and why most Americans did not agree with the bailouts. Any intelligent person would also see a problem in the government owning private corporations and financial institutions. Yet that is exactly what has happened here.

The ideal bailout is not a bailout of reckless financiers. It's like the government equivalent of a hospice for dying companies, involving no taxpayer money and no moral hazard. And the people who behaved recklessly, they get their comeuppance.

The most egregious bailout, that's a tossup between Citigroup and AIG. I think AIG was worse just because it involved so much money. And there's no way we're going to see all of that back. It will end up being the greatest theft in history.

It's conventional wisdom on Wall Street that the government made a mistake in letting Lehman Brothers collapse last September. But some people think the real mistake was rescuing Bear Stearns a few months earlier, since that led Lehman to expect a rescue.

Goldman Sachs ended up with just about the best deal of all. Not just the $10 billion federal bailout, which it paid back, but all that extra money from the AIG bailout. It's astonishing that Goldman Sachs walked away with what they did. As an AIG counterparty, they got $13 billion from the AIG bailout. That's on top of the $5.9 billion they grabbed on the eve of AIG's collapse. It's just so egregious.

I doubt that a dime will ever be recovered/paid back by:
AIG (total bailout received: $85 billion), Chrysler ($14.9 billion), CIT Group Inc. ($2.3 billion), Citigroup ($45 billion). General Motors ($50.7 billion),
GMAC ($12.5 billion), Marshall & Ilsley Corp. ($1.7 billion),
Regions Financial Corp. ($3.5 billion), or
Zions Bank Corp. ($1.4 billion).

How has the life of the average American become any better after these bailouts? It hasn't. For most Americans their lives are even worse financially.

Estimates now are that the housing industry may take two decades to see a return to health.

I read a recent poll recently that showed that 54% of American now fear losing their jobs. That is more than twice as high as a simliar poll that was done last year. 82% claim to know someone, a friend or relative or neighbor, that has lost their job in the last year! 74% of Americans are worried about paying their bills and being able to keep up. 56% thought the bailouts had no real effect and 34% thought the bailouts had made things even worse.

The umemployment figures are actually much more staggering than are reported as well since they do not included people who have fallen off the radar or were never there to begin with. Employees who have had their hours cut, employees who were working full-time and reduced to part time, employees who were Independent Contrcators and thereby not entitiled to any unemployment benefits, those who received unemployment and still have not found work, yet their unemployment benefits have run out, people who decided to quit trying to find a job after months of searching and are living off their meager savings, hoping they can last til Social Security sets in, those who took an un-timely and early retirement that they never planed on because the writing was already on the wall or they were forced to do so, those who may work under the table, such as housekeepers, or child care workers, etc. I believe the true numbers will never be known to the public and are far, far worse and many percentage points higher than ever reported.

Let's face a historical truth: we have never really had a free market. We have had government intervention in the economy, and indeed that intervention has been welcomed by the captains of finance and industry. These titans of wealth hypocritically warned against "big government" but only when government threatened to regulate their activities or when it contemplated passing some of the nation's wealth on to the neediest people. They had no quarrel with big government when it served their own greedy needs did they?

How about a bailout for the middle class in this country and not Wall Street or other financial institutions or big corporations whose CEO make billions for themselves while running their companies in a haphazard and inept fashion while screwing over their employess and the public at large?

A simple and powerful alternative would be to take that huge sum of money, $700 billion, and give it directly to the people who need it. Let the government declare a moratorium on foreclosures and help homeowners pay off their mortgages. Create a federal jobs program to guarantee work to people who want and need jobs.

We have a historic and successful precedent. The government in the early days of the New Deal put millions of people to work rebuilding the nation's infrastructure. Hundreds of thousands of young people, instead of joining the army to escape poverty, joined the Civil Conservation Corps, which built bridges and highways, cleaned up harbors and rivers.

Thousands of artists, musicians and writers were employed by the WPA's arts programs to paint murals, produce plays, write symphonies. The New Deal (defying the cries of "socialism") established Social Security, which, along with the GI Bill, became a model for what government could do to help its people.

What is the governement doing now besides raising our taxes and various fees on a County, State and Federal level, and putting our children's grandchildren in debt? We have ceased to be an ecomony of manufacturing and goods production and agriculture production and have been reduced to an economy of services and consumerism. But now there are fewer consumers and fewer services to sell.

Neil Barofsky is the man who tracks the historic bailout known as the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP. The 39-year-old special inspector general monitors a dozen separate bailout-related programs that now account for nearly $3 trillion in financial commitments. A former federal prosecutor, Barofsky has subpoena power and has launched about three dozen investigations since being named to the post in December 2008. In an audit released in July 2009, Barofsky made clear that he was intent on demanding transparency from all quarters -- including the U.S. Treasury. His next audit is due in October. During an interview with the Huffington Post Investigative Fund, Barofsky made some striking observations. Among them were:

1. He found hundreds of banks capable of tracking their use of the TARP money - despite claims by the U.S. Treasury that the task was impossible.

2. If the purpose of the TARP rescue was to increase lending, it has failed.

3. The U.S. financial system, now dependent on bigger and fewer banks, is shakier than ever.

Well isn't that fucking happy news!

The idea was that banks were going to help consumers get lines of credit, keep interest rates on loans and credit cards low, get small business loans, make it easier to refinance a mortage, etc. Has any of this happened for any consumer? No it has not. The banks clammed up but took the Tarp monies. Oh wait, dozens of banks leant the damn Tarp monies to several foreign banks at high interest rates and made money off the Tarp funds!!! When the Feds wanted an accounting, these same banks gladly returned the Tarp money or offered to. Afterall, they had already made fortunes in interest off of it!

What nickel of this money has trickled down to Americans? What jobs have been created?? Wasn't that the promise?

Good points. The bailouts were a terrible idea, the money could have been put to much better use. Helping people avoid foreclosures would have benefitted both the consumers and the banks, not to mention the general economy as a whole because these people would have more money to spend on other things.

There was an article in Forbes magazine awhile back that proposed that instead of (I can't remember if it was the bailouts or the Stimulus bill) using the money for that purpose, they could have given each and every adult 21 and over $50,000 to pay off their bills with. Now, obviously not everyone would have used the money to do the right thing, but many would have (I know I would) and that money could have benefitted the economy by getting mortgages paid off, credit cards paid off, student loans, small business owners could have used the money to expand and maybe create more jobs, etc...

The banks would have improved their situation by having their balance sheets improved by loan repayment which would make them more likely to be financially able to offer loans to the consumer.

Like I said before, many people would have probably wasted the money, but wasn't the money wasted anyway ? At least some people could have gotten out of debt or paid off a serious chunk of their debt under this plan.
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  #4  
Old 10-23-2009, 07:50 AM
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Re: Mind the Gap

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeitgeist1969 View Post
Good points. The bailouts were a terrible idea, the money could have been put to much better use. Helping people avoid foreclosures would have benefitted both the consumers and the banks, not to mention the general economy as a whole because these people would have more money to spend on other things.

There was an article in Forbes magazine awhile back that proposed that instead of (I can't remember if it was the bailouts or the Stimulus bill) using the money for that purpose, they could have given each and every adult 21 and over $50,000 to pay off their bills with. Now, obviously not everyone would have used the money to do the right thing, but many would have (I know I would) and that money could have benefitted the economy by getting mortgages paid off, credit cards paid off, student loans, small business owners could have used the money to expand and maybe create more jobs, etc...

The banks would have improved their situation by having their balance sheets improved by loan repayment which would make them more likely to be financially able to offer loans to the consumer.

Like I said before, many people would have probably wasted the money, but wasn't the money wasted anyway ? At least some people could have gotten out of debt or paid off a serious chunk of their debt under this plan.

You both made good points. but if it makes sense do you actually think that the government would even consider it.



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Old 10-23-2009, 10:40 AM
put it out there baby put it out there baby is offline
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Re: Mind the Gap

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Originally Posted by Old Timer View Post
You both made good points. but if it makes sense do you actually think that the government would even consider it.
Of course not. The government ceased supporting and listening it's citizens a long time ago. It's all about power and their own agendas. Screw what the people need or want. It's about controlling and limiting the citizens of this nation, not supporting them and getting the hell out of the way.

Both parties routinely take American citizens for granted, and both parties work overtime to pit us against one another. I worry because we have somehow let a new breed of political aristocrats, deaf to the average person, back into power in the first country to ever throw off government by royal decree. That scares me!

People are damn angry at their government for not listening. Rasmussen Reports recently found 60 percent of those polled said neither Democratic nor Republican leaders understand what the country needs. "I think what people are looking for is different than what the politicians want to provide," Scott Rasmussen said. No kidding!

The polls showed most citizens overwhelmingly opposed President Bush's bailout of financial firms, but that made no difference to our leaders.

The bailout of the automakers, with special provisions for unions, got the same strong public disapproval, and that didn't matter to lawmakers or the president, either. Impoverished black parents in Washington, desperate to get their children into private schools and out of really awful public schools, love the voucher program there, but it is being dismantled because national teachers unions don't like it. WTF?

More and more we see the proof. The political class does what is best for it and ignores the public's opinion about what is the best course for the nation. "It doesn't matter what we say," Mr. Rasmussen said. Tea parties, for example, are for Americans who are tired of both sides playing us against one another to gain more prestige or power for themselves or their party. It's now them and us. What ever happened to the concept that the governement actualy works for us? We pay them, we give them their jobs. The umbilical cord is severed after that apparently.

This is what people mean when they say we "want our country back." We believe in government that faithfully follows the wishes of average people across the political spectrum. Something that has become, dangerously, rarer and rarer and in many cases, simply non-existent!


Last edited by put it out there baby : 10-23-2009 at 10:49 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-23-2009, 11:25 AM
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Re: Mind the Gap

Quote:
Originally Posted by put it out there baby View Post
Of course not. The government ceased supporting and listening it's citizens a long time ago. It's all about power and their own agendas. Screw what the people need or want. It's about controlling and limiting the citizens of this nation, not supporting them and getting the hell out of the way.

Both parties routinely take American citizens for granted, and both parties work overtime to pit us against one another. I worry because we have somehow let a new breed of political aristocrats, deaf to the average person, back into power in the first country to ever throw off government by royal decree. That scares me!

People are damn angry at their government for not listening. Rasmussen Reports recently found 60 percent of those polled said neither Democratic nor Republican leaders understand what the country needs. "I think what people are looking for is different than what the politicians want to provide," Scott Rasmussen said. No kidding!

The polls showed most citizens overwhelmingly opposed President Bush's bailout of financial firms, but that made no difference to our leaders.

The bailout of the automakers, with special provisions for unions, got the same strong public disapproval, and that didn't matter to lawmakers or the president, either. Impoverished black parents in Washington, desperate to get their children into private schools and out of really awful public schools, love the voucher program there, but it is being dismantled because national teachers unions don't like it. WTF?

More and more we see the proof. The political class does what is best for it and ignores the public's opinion about what is the best course for the nation. "It doesn't matter what we say," Mr. Rasmussen said. Tea parties, for example, are for Americans who are tired of both sides playing us against one another to gain more prestige or power for themselves or their party. It's now them and us. What ever happened to the concept that the governement actualy works for us? We pay them, we give them their jobs. The umbilical cord is severed after that apparently.

This is what people mean when they say we "want our country back." We believe in government that faithfully follows the wishes of average people across the political spectrum. Something that has become, dangerously, rarer and rarer and in many cases, simply non-existent!
I learned a very good lesson once as a young boy. Living near the river we had a large number of rats around. One day (against the advise of my eldrs) I cornered one of them. I vegan teasing it and poking it with a stick. It did not take long and the rat became so afraid and scared that it soon lost all fear of me and tried to attack me. Idon't man it tried to attack to get away, it kept after me. I was very lucky that I wasn't bitten. scared, yes, but a lot wiser.

I think that our government is doing the same thing to us. Pushing us into a corner and continually provoking us. Question is, how much more can we take before we also go on the offensive.

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Old 10-23-2009, 04:23 PM
put it out there baby put it out there baby is offline
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Re: Mind the Gap

Americans are fed up with a Government that owns the country rather than a government that is owned by the people.

Look at the 69% percent-plus majority here in California in favor of smaller government, fiscal responsibility and accountabilty (what a damn concept!) and lower taxes, while Sacramento politicians and interest groups work to overrule the people of California.

The political machines in California are wrecking the state's economy and driving out successful residents. But the machines don't care because all they want to do is own the fucking wreckage.

We were able to beat down another tax increase this late Spring by going grass root and literally taking the fight to the street.

The elites ridiculed or ignored the first harbinger of rebellion, the recent tea parties. While it will be harder to ignore the massive anti-tax, anti-spending vote that the ciitzens of California made earlier this year, they will once again attempt to do just that, sooner than later.

In the great tradition of political movements rising against arrogant, corrupt elites, there will be a party of people rooting out the party of government. The party targeted won't be just Republican, it won't just be Democratic. In my opinion, it will be both and should be. The politicians have been warned.

People are sick of intrusions. Rules on what to think, how to act, what to drive, what to eat, what to say, where to smoke, where to shop, what to buy, when to cool our homes, when to wash our car, when to water our lawns, and a million other rules that are nothing but more restrictions into our private lives and means to control the citizens.


Last edited by put it out there baby : 10-23-2009 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:11 PM
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Re: Mind the Gap

Quote:
Originally Posted by put it out there baby View Post
Americans are fed up with a Government that owns the country rather than a government that is owned by the people.

Look at the 69% percent-plus majority here in California in favor of smaller government, fiscal responsibility and accountabilty (what a damn concept!) and lower taxes, while Sacramento politicians and interest groups work to overrule the people of California.

The political machines in California are wrecking the state's economy and driving out successful residents. But the machines don't care because all they want to do is own the fucking wreckage.

We were able to beat down another tax increase this late Spring by going grass root and literally taking the fight to the street.

The elites ridiculed or ignored the first harbinger of rebellion, the recent tea parties. While it will be harder to ignore the massive anti-tax, anti-spending vote that the ciitzens of California made earlier this year, they will once again attempt to do just that, sooner than later.

In the great tradition of political movements rising against arrogant, corrupt elites, there will be a party of people rooting out the party of government. The party targeted won't be just Republican, it won't just be Democratic. In my opinion, it will be both and should be. The politicians have been warned.

People are sick of intrusions. Rules on what to think, how to act, what to drive, what to eat, what to say, where to smoke, where to shop, what to buy, when to cool our homes, when to wash our car, when to water our lawns, and a million other rules that are nothing but more restrictions into our private lives and means to control the citizens.
It is getting to be that way all over. Question is, when are the people going to finally get it together and really put a stop to it?

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Old 10-23-2009, 09:40 PM
zeitgeist1969 zeitgeist1969 is offline
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Re: Mind the Gap

Thomas Jefferson once said that "When the Government fears the people, there is liberty, when people fear the Government, there is tyranny". Where do you think we are right now along that continuum ?

This "change you can believe in" is going to destroy America as we know it. Got to give Barack Obama (MMM MMM MMM) his props, he fooled a lot of idiots in the last election. They should all be proud in taking part in destroying the greatest country on Earth and turning the beacon of hope and freedom in the world into another eurosocialist country characterized by malaise and high unemployment and lack of opportunity to improve our lives due to nanny state Governmental restrictions on everything and "tsars" controlling every aspect of our lives. Thanks, guys, I hope you're happy.
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:32 PM
put it out there baby put it out there baby is offline
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Re: Mind the Gap

For me, the Government in this country ceased being the type of Government that Jefferson described decades ago. In his opinion, the Government ought be judged by how well it meets its legitimate objectives. For him, good government was the one who most effectively secures the rights of the people and the rewards of their labor, which promotes their happiness, and also does their will. He also said, "The care of human life and happiness and not their destruction is the only legitimate object of good government."

When exactly was the last time that this happened? It's not just the current administration that is at fault, it's the many adminstrations preceeding this one. And it has been this way at the City, County, State and Federal level for a very long tme. What we are experiencing now is just the heritage and legacy of it all. It's the out of control political franchise machine and it is steamrolling right over every private citizen of this nation!

Wouldn't this be refreshing?

A government that promotes peace, instead of war.
A government that makes policies beneficial to all, instead of just a few already rich elite.
A government that works to protect its citizens by promoting safer and healthier workplaces, a living wage, and accountability from CEOs who use their companies for greedy and nefarious purposes.
A government that is open to scrutiny and expects its actions to be monitored by its citizens.
A government that assists the needy, without question.
A government that reduces spending on programs to kill people and increases spending on programs to save people's lives.
A government of representatives that vote for their constituent's needs first.
A government and its representatives who uphold the rule of law, and strive to protect our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.

Look at schools in this country and what they have become in the last 50 or so years. "Public" schools do not educate; they indoctrinate. They make people grow up accepting the status quoas "the way things have always been, and must continue to be". "Public" schools have just about destroyed literacy in America. People are no longer encouraged to think for themselves. They are discouraged from asking questions or objecting. Everything now in this country falls into the two Party line bullshit. You are either for us or against us. What sort of ignorant, uncritical "thinking" is this? What happened to being an individual?

People rant about Corporate monopolies, yet The Government monopolizes its own services.
It does this two ways. First, prohibits competition. The Post Office as an example.

Second, because it can fund itself by taxation, Government service is subsidized. Since it can sell its service at a loss, free market business simply cannot compete.

Amazing that people do not recognize that the same evil and perversion of monopolies occurs with government service. Ever increasing and high prices with ever decreasing quality. This is the exact description of all government services!

Our government has become a system of control. What is "control"? It is a loss of freedom!! Some "freedoms" may not be ethical and may not be a "right", but the only reasonable way to deal with this is to let the people set the boundaries and enforce their own rights without fear of being further violated by government enforcement of some nonsensical "law" that the people never created or wanted or even needed in the first damn place!

The bigger the government is, the more expensive. The deeper the government reaches, the more expensive it is. Are you just as free if 70% of your money is taken by government as you are if "only" 10% is taken? I don't think so. Is not a slave oppressed simply because he lacks the final say in running his own life? He must ask permission for the majority of his actions. Just as government, even the most "non-intrusive" government, demands.

Now we have a government that has done the unimaginable and the unthinkable. It now owns and controls private financial instituitons and corporations! How the hell did we ever let this shit happen?


Last edited by put it out there baby : 10-23-2009 at 10:59 PM.
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  #11  
Old 10-26-2009, 11:51 AM
zeitgeist1969 zeitgeist1969 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 277
Re: Mind the Gap

Quote:
Originally Posted by put it out there baby View Post
For me, the Government in this country ceased being the type of Government that Jefferson described decades ago. In his opinion, the Government ought be judged by how well it meets its legitimate objectives. For him, good government was the one who most effectively secures the rights of the people and the rewards of their labor, which promotes their happiness, and also does their will. He also said, "The care of human life and happiness and not their destruction is the only legitimate object of good government."

When exactly was the last time that this happened? It's not just the current administration that is at fault, it's the many adminstrations preceeding this one. And it has been this way at the City, County, State and Federal level for a very long tme. What we are experiencing now is just the heritage and legacy of it all. It's the out of control political franchise machine and it is steamrolling right over every private citizen of this nation!

Wouldn't this be refreshing?

A government that promotes peace, instead of war.
A government that makes policies beneficial to all, instead of just a few already rich elite.
A government that works to protect its citizens by promoting safer and healthier workplaces, a living wage, and accountability from CEOs who use their companies for greedy and nefarious purposes.
A government that is open to scrutiny and expects its actions to be monitored by its citizens.
A government that assists the needy, without question.
A government that reduces spending on programs to kill people and increases spending on programs to save people's lives.
A government of representatives that vote for their constituent's needs first.
A government and its representatives who uphold the rule of law, and strive to protect our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.

Look at schools in this country and what they have become in the last 50 or so years. "Public" schools do not educate; they indoctrinate. They make people grow up accepting the status quoas "the way things have always been, and must continue to be". "Public" schools have just about destroyed literacy in America. People are no longer encouraged to think for themselves. They are discouraged from asking questions or objecting. Everything now in this country falls into the two Party line bullshit. You are either for us or against us. What sort of ignorant, uncritical "thinking" is this? What happened to being an individual?

People rant about Corporate monopolies, yet The Government monopolizes its own services.
It does this two ways. First, prohibits competition. The Post Office as an example.

Second, because it can fund itself by taxation, Government service is subsidized. Since it can sell its service at a loss, free market business simply cannot compete.

Amazing that people do not recognize that the same evil and perversion of monopolies occurs with government service. Ever increasing and high prices with ever decreasing quality. This is the exact description of all government services!

Our government has become a system of control. What is "control"? It is a loss of freedom!! Some "freedoms" may not be ethical and may not be a "right", but the only reasonable way to deal with this is to let the people set the boundaries and enforce their own rights without fear of being further violated by government enforcement of some nonsensical "law" that the people never created or wanted or even needed in the first damn place!

The bigger the government is, the more expensive. The deeper the government reaches, the more expensive it is. Are you just as free if 70% of your money is taken by government as you are if "only" 10% is taken? I don't think so. Is not a slave oppressed simply because he lacks the final say in running his own life? He must ask permission for the majority of his actions. Just as government, even the most "non-intrusive" government, demands.

Now we have a government that has done the unimaginable and the unthinkable. It now owns and controls private financial instituitons and corporations! How the hell did we ever let this shit happen?

You're preachin' to the choir. Our country has totally lost the mission and you are right, it's not just Democrats faults, it's not just Republicans faults, it's all politicians who are more concerned about their own pet projects and getting re-elected than they are for the welfare of the country.

Both parties have been in total control at one time or another in the past 10-15 years and neither has done what's needed to be done about a whole myriad of issues: immigration, housing, the education system, the health care system, social security, fiscal responsibility, etc...

They're too busy covering their own asses and fighting back and forth instead of trying to develop plans together to get this country back on track. They care more about which party gets the credit, who gets face-time on TV, and which special interest groups they can appease than they do about their sacred duty to uphold the Constitution and do everything they can for the betterment of our country and the people who elect them into office.

Politics were never envisioned by the Founding Fathers as a way of enrichment and a career choice. We need term limits for everybody.

I'm so sick of these people.
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  #12  
Old 10-26-2009, 05:34 PM
put it out there baby put it out there baby is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,196
Re: Mind the Gap

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeitgeist1969 View Post
You're preachin' to the choir. Our country has totally lost the mission and you are right, it's not just Democrats faults, it's not just Republicans faults, it's all politicians who are more concerned about their own pet projects and getting re-elected than they are for the welfare of the country.

Both parties have been in total control at one time or another in the past 10-15 years and neither has done what's needed to be done about a whole myriad of issues: immigration, housing, the education system, the health care system, social security, fiscal responsibility, etc...

They're too busy covering their own asses and fighting back and forth instead of trying to develop plans together to get this country back on track. They care more about which party gets the credit, who gets face-time on TV, and which special interest groups they can appease than they do about their sacred duty to uphold the Constitution and do everything they can for the betterment of our country and the people who elect them into office.

Politics were never envisioned by the Founding Fathers as a way of enrichment and a career choice. We need term limits for everybody.

I'm so sick of these people.
AMEN!!!!! It's too bad there are not more reasonable, intelligent, logical, critical thinkers on this forum. It's all the same old childish bullshit Left Right mudslinging crap and clinging to old hack Party Lines, which have failed miserably on BOTH sides for many decades! These short-sighted idiots are doing nothing but rearranging deck chairs on there Titanic. Bravo Zeitgeist!


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