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  #1  
Old 10-13-2009, 07:52 PM
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Cnance Cnance is offline
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Why isn't God in our material world?

Summary of positions are as follows: God doesn't exist, so why ask the question. The material world is what remains of paradise after God abandoned us. ("From dust we are, from dust we return.") God is in our material world world but we just can't see Him.



Last edited by Cnance : 10-13-2009 at 08:12 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-14-2009, 02:32 AM
malchediel malchediel is offline
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
Summary of positions are as follows: God doesn't exist, so why ask the question. The material world is what remains of paradise after God abandoned us. ("From dust we are, from dust we return.") God is in our material world world but we just can't see Him.
Er... wait.. from what position are you coming from?

You seem to want to discount God, yet you quote from God's book to do so.

Seems to me that you are a confused believer...
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:32 AM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
Summary of positions are as follows: God doesn't exist, so why ask the question. The material world is what remains of paradise after God abandoned us. ("From dust we are, from dust we return.") God is in our material world world but we just can't see Him.
I think the possible positions are greater than three. Although, I do understand your point. Given the three choices, I'd have to pick number three. It is my feeling that we do not understand who God is. Our ability toward understanding has been clouded by thousands of years of distorted teaching. The style of, and motivation for that teaching over the milenia has been driven by local needs and intellectual limitations of the time.

When I try to conceptualize what it is that we base our beliefs on, I am always driven toward a question, "Why is it, in the Judeo/Christian world, do we base all of humanity and the relationship toward God, on texts written strictly for a single family, tribe, race...whatever?"

The justification, biblically speaking, is that all humanity is born of that bloodline. But that particular premise is flawed. And with that flawed premise, the rest is flawed and therefore so is the foundation for the entire belief system. The Torah is clearly sexist, written in favor of men, and geared toward maintaining control of a people.

So...it should be obvious to the most casual observer, that I do not embrace the Bible as "truth". I do however embrace the idea that God exists. Can I prove it? No. And I don't want to prove it. I think that absolute proof would be a disaster.

I also think that God is in our material world. I base that belief on the presence of evil. Evil is all around us and is readily apparent. And I think that there is a balance in nature. Absolute evil requires Absolute Good as a counterbalance. And then there is everything in between.

I don't try to prove it, because that seems counterproductive. I do try to understand it and see the magnificence of the world, in both the big things and the small.

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  #4  
Old 10-14-2009, 02:57 AM
malchediel malchediel is offline
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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I think the possible positions are greater than three. Although, I do understand your point. Given the three choices, I'd have to pick number three. It is my feeling that we do not understand who God is. Our ability toward understanding has been clouded by thousands of years of distorted teaching. The style of, and motivation for that teaching over the milenia has been driven by local needs and intellectual limitations of the time.
God has given us an understanding of who He is in the Bible. You see, it's not just distorted teaching, it's a very strict Talmud and evidence found in the Dead See Scrolls. He has given us that which is then backed up by quotations found in the Gospels.

When I try to conceptualize what it is that we base our beliefs on, I am always driven toward a question, "Why is it, in the Judeo/Christian world, do we base all of humanity and the relationship toward God, on texts written strictly for a single family, tribe, race...whatever?"[/quote]

The texts, if you read and study them is for all humanity.

The justification, biblically speaking, is that all humanity is born of that bloodline. But that particular premise is flauote]wed. And with that flawed premise, the rest is flawed and therefore so is the foundation for the entire belief system. The Torah is clearly sexist, written in favor of men, and geared toward maintaining control of a people.[/quote]

Why is it flawed? What flaw is found?

So...it should be obvious to the most casual observer, that I do not embrace the Bible as "truth". I do however embrace the idea that God exists. Can I prove it? No. And I don't want to prove it. I think that absolute proof would be a disaster.


You should, if you believe HE exists, no matter your feelings, you should defend Him and show cause for Him. Otherwise you are the lukewarm.... sitting on the fence..

I also think that God is in our material world. I base that belief on the presence of evil. Evil is all around us and is readily apparent. And I think that there is a balance in nature. Absolute evil requires Absolute Good as a counterbalance. And then there is everything in between.

WAIT, You base God on the evil of the world? Your balance is a tell tale sign of druidism (AND THE LIKE).

What comes between absolute good and absolute evil since you seem to think there is a between?


I don't try to prove it, because that seems counterproductive. I do try to understand it and see the magnificence of the world, in both the big things and the small.[/quote]

There is no reason to try to prove it .. God has spoken. You can choose to follow or you can choose not to... But I'll tell you, God wants you to follow.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:18 AM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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God has given us an understanding of who He is in the Bible. You see, it's not just distorted teaching, it's a very strict Talmud and evidence found in the Dead See Scrolls. He has given us that which is then backed up by quotations found in the Gospels.
Well, you see, I have a bit of trouble accepting the premise that God has given us an understanding of who he is in the Bible. If I look at Genesis and see that the sun, moon, and stars are inside our atmosphere, with water above that, and water below that, I must conclude that either God doesn't understand the construction of near space, or that the writer of Genesis didn't. I will choose that the writer didn't. If we are allowed to interpret that section to say that things have changed since then....or that the writer didn't understand the inspired image, then every passage in the Bible should be allowed to be interpreted in any manner that suits us as we progress in our understanding of the universe and each other...And then, of course re-translate it when we feel it needs "clarification".
But then again...you are saying that it is "a very strict Talmud (or Study)". So if I am required to adhere to its strictness, then I must take the description of the construction of Space literally, as written. Since, in this strict study, there is no explanation how the water above eventually turned into a reflection/refraction of the water below and how the sun eventually moved 8 light minutes away, I must conclude that those events never occurred, and that the sun and moon are still within our atmosphere, that light occurs each day, and then the sun comes up to rule that day, then the sun goes down at the end of that day, then the light goes away, then the moon comes out to rule the night (except for the nights that it has the night off...and except for the days when it's out there ruling the day with the sun). Or does the strict study explain that as "symbolic"? If so..where does the symbolism end and the truth begin?
But within that very strict study over the milennia, for the first 1000 years, it was flatly accepted verbatim...not symbolic...until it was questioned....then it is rationalized....then it is justified...then it is reinterpreted....in a strict sort of way.
If the Bible is the absolute Truth....then it's an all or nothing thing. What's it gonna be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparques
When I try to conceptualize what it is that we base our beliefs on, I am always driven toward a question, "Why is it, in the Judeo/Christian world, do we base all of humanity and the relationship toward God, on texts written strictly for a single family, tribe, race...whatever?"

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Originally Posted by malchediel View Post
The texts, if you read and study them is for all humanity.
Except perhaps the part where it says, "Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God."
or perhaps when God said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob."
But I guess, that is all of humanity. Especially since it has been established...In the Bible...that no one existed prior to this single family, and the whole population of the earth, with all its present diversity in race and paleontological evidence of an Asian/Australian/North-South American migration tens of thousands of years earlier are irrelevent. But, of course, in this strict study, none of that is mentioned. Probably not important.
What IS important is that a woman, after giving birth to a son, must be cleansed for a month, or two months if she screws up and has a daughter. And, within this strict study, she is required to seek atonement and burn up her livestock to provide a pleasing smell to God to make up for that transgression.
I know, I know...that was all fixed in later revisions and revelations. I can't imagine why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparques
The justification, biblically speaking, is that all humanity is born of that bloodline. But that particular premise is flauote]wed. And with that flawed premise, the rest is flawed and therefore so is the foundation for the entire belief system. The Torah is clearly sexist, written in favor of men, and geared toward maintaining control of a people.

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Why is it flawed? What flaw is found?
Although your questions are leading, let me say that in general, it is flawed due to the expectation that it be taken literally. The Iceman, a mummy found in an Austrian Alps glacier is older than the Flood. I have an arrowhead that I personally found in a dry river bed in Texas that was honed out of flint over 10,000 years ago. It is flawed because Moses wins a debate with God that he is unable to speak well enough to debate with Pharaoh. It is flawed because magicians are able to duplicate turning all the water in Egypt to blood, even though it already was blood because of Moses' stick.....and that the hail plague killed all the livestock that were already dead due to the previous plague of dead livestock. It is flawed because there is no evidence of the Exodus of a million Israelite slaves out of Egypt...or that Egypt enslaved them to begin with....none. It is flawed because it is sexist....catering to the honoring of men and the demonizing/minimizing of women.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparques
So...it should be obvious to the most casual observer, that I do not embrace the Bible as "truth". I do however embrace the idea that God exists. Can I prove it? No. And I don't want to prove it. I think that absolute proof would be a disaster.

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Originally Posted by malchediel View Post
You should, if you believe HE exists, no matter your feelings, you should defend Him and show cause for Him. Otherwise you are the lukewarm.... sitting on the fence..
I am under no obligation whatsoever, either morally or ethically, to you or to God, to embrace the Bible. I do believe in God, and have a personal and intimate relationship that vastly outweighs any personal judgement by you or any other human. My rejection of that compilation of texts has nothing to do with a "lukewarm" attitude. It has to do with trying to understand the Truth. And I will not dellude myself with stories of old simply because of sociologic inertia developed by people interested in promoting their own personal power over the last 3500 years.

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Originally Posted by sparques
I also think that God is in our material world. I base that belief on the presence of evil. Evil is all around us and is readily apparent. And I think that there is a balance in nature. Absolute evil requires Absolute Good as a counterbalance. And then there is everything in between.

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Originally Posted by malchediel View Post
WAIT, You base God on the evil of the world? Your balance is a tell tale sign of druidism (AND THE LIKE).
That's not what I said. If you must rely on twisting my words to make a point, then I see no point in answering

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What comes between absolute good and absolute evil since you seem to think there is a between?
Oh..I think there are plenty of little transgressions in between. I could even bet that Mother Theresa could have cussed a little under her breath from time to time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparques
I don't try to prove it, because that seems counterproductive. I do try to understand it and see the magnificence of the world, in both the big things and the small.

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Originally Posted by malchediel View Post
There is no reason to try to prove it .. God has spoken. You can choose to follow or you can choose not to... But I'll tell you, God wants you to follow.
I'm afraid that I do not recognize your authority in the matter. I will choose my path as I see fit. It was my intent to answer Cnance's posit. It was not to get into a debate about how wrong I am...or how right you are.

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  #6  
Old 10-14-2009, 08:20 AM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

Pretty good, Sparques.

Suppose YHVH wasn't trying to develop a system by which men can organize, but instead, a system that caused men to argue and disagree?

The Tower of Babel story shows us that the natural inclination of humans is to develop a single system and proceed from there. At least four world empires, not to mention the ones in more modern times, show that men have no problem with the willingness to organize. But suppose organization was the very problem YHVH was trying to avoid in a drive that would ensure individual adaptive intelligence?

Look at Israel's history, even if it is a myth. They are to be a blessing to all nations. But how? Certainly not by organizing people and forcing them to obey laws. That's already the problem.

Instead, YHVH selects a group and puts them in a desert, where they are forced to "hardwire" a law into their minds that is not dependent on the surrounding environment. In short, they are prepared to live by those laws wherever they go.

Instead of organizing the world, they tend to "infect" large systems and cause them to break apart into more individualized systems. Israel became a kind of cultural/viral "DNA" that was highly divers and adaptive because they themselves could not perfectly obey the laws they were given.

Israel's function was to "inform" other cultures.

Notice the parallels. "Sin" was called "leavening". Leavening tends to spread throughout a loaf until it is either baked or collapses of its own weight and growth. Israel was not to partake of the "leavening" of other cultures, but to strictly adhere to the laws given them as nearly as possible.

They were quite literally designed to cause the division, disagreement, and even hatred among individuals, causing a breakdown of systems to individual needs and desires.

That enhanced adaptability and avoided destruction to excessive growth, or overspecialization.

The New Testament further tells us that the natural mind cannot be subject to God's laws, which would result in an infinite speciation of ideas about God as truth. The more devoted the believer, the more he is forced to look at himself as an individual.

The result of following the bible is 38,000 versions of Christianity.

But Jesus himself pointed out that was his purpose for coming, in Matthew 10:34-38.

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Old 10-14-2009, 09:42 AM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

Doojie...I bet I spend at least a week analyzing what you just proposed about the Viral Israeli thing. Is that of your own design? Pretty impressive.

I'll also add that Exodus is a great story to introduce the basic idea that God will always be there for you, even when you reject Him over and over.

It says that He wants an intimate relationship with you.

The whole manna aspect says "Depend on me every day"

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Old 10-14-2009, 09:52 AM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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Doojie...I bet I spend at least a week analyzing what you just proposed about the Viral Israeli thing. Is that of your own design? Pretty impressive.

I'll also add that Exodus is a great story to introduce the basic idea that God will always be there for you, even when you reject Him over and over.

It says that He wants an intimate relationship with you.

The whole manna aspect says "Depend on me every day"
Thanks. I got the idea from reading a book called "EarthWalk" by Philip Slater. You might find it in out of print books or the library, but it is one I would highly recommend.

Slater is really good, even profound in that book.

He compares the virus to the prophet, and points out that, just as the body destroys the virus but maiontains its DNA "message" a culture will kill a prophet, but in order to generate hatred of the prophet, it must understand the message enough to generate that hatred.

So, as the DNA of a virus is absorbed into an organism to cause reproductive changes, so is the "DNA" message of the prophet absorbed into the culture for future reference.

In organisms, they call it "junk DNA", which can be accessed for necesary adaptations to future threats.

The Jews themselves adapted this as a conscious strategy, writing down minority opinions of rabbis for future reference in related situations. Israel's whole process of development seems more biological than mechanical.

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Old 10-14-2009, 01:25 PM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

I didn't mean to limit possible responses by my summary statement. It's just a starter.

I thought this an important topic because I have heard numerous times that God did this or He did that to cause something to happen. Most of us have heard people say God is all around us.

Because of my firm belief in the Lord of the Old Testament, I believe that there was paradise. I think it happened about the time of the Cambrian explosion (530 million years ago when most creatures appeared). After Satan came into the world, things fell apart. No longer would creatues live eternally with God. Now, they would suffer the consequences of living in a wild savage world where time and death would determine their fate.

I believe we are living in the aftermath of paradise lost. Having discovered material evidence of past worlds, we can ask, "for what purpose." The biblical story of paradise is a plausible explanation. Even, assuming an explanation based on evolution, there are reasonable doubts that it all came from nothing and that it has no purpose accept to show how brilliant nature is to have evolved such beauty with such a wide variety of species. I don't believe that from randomness of selection, mutations and the like, it all happened.

Is God in our material world? I think not. I believe he is outside of the universe in heaven away from Satan's vicious attacks and human's unrelenting doubts and criticisms. He already suffered the consequences of trying to reason with homo sapiens. I don't expect anyone to agree with me and I can't argue with those who disagree. After all, there's no material proof for God or for His design for the universe.

At night, when you gaze at the stars and see how well placed there are in the firmament, and when you see nature's beauty and how wonderfully we are made, do you wonder if God had a hand?


Last edited by Cnance : 10-14-2009 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:18 PM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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I thought this an important topic because I have heard numerous times that God did this or He did that to cause something to happen. Most of us have heard people say God is all around us.
I would have to classify myself as one of those types.

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Originally Posted by Cnance
Because of my firm belief in the Lord of the Old Testament, I believe that there was paradise. I think it happened about the time of the Cambrian explosion (530 million years ago when most creatures appeared). After Satan came into the world, things fell apart. No longer would creatues live eternally with God. Now, they would suffer the consequences of living in a wild savage world where time and death would determine their fate.
This is where we disagree. Although I really don't have a defined disagreement with your supposition. I just kinda think, "hmmm..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cnance
Is God in our material world? I think not. I believe he is outside of the universe in heaven away from Satan's vicious attacks and human's unrelenting doubts and criticisms. He already suffered the consequences of trying to reason with homo sapiens. I don't expect anyone to agree with me and I can't argue with those who disagree. After all, there's no material proof for God or for His design for the universe.
I think I'd like to first know "what" God is. It seems to me that if God is something that is nearly impossible to comprehend, then perhaps all past attempts at comprehension are incorrect....leading me to think that an entirely new way of thinking is required. That we can not rely on the "God made us in His image" sort of packaging ideal....or the fundamental description of "spirit" is something never correctly defined. I dunno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cnance
At night, when you gaze at the stars and see how well placed there are in the firmament, and when see nature's beauty and how wonderfully we are made, do you wonder if God had a hand?
It's one of my favorite things to do. I also have http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ set as my homepage for my browser. I spend a lot of time at the computer each day and this website generally gives me a lot to reflect on in regard to the awesomeness of the universe.

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Old 10-15-2009, 08:10 AM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

Assuming certain biblical truths, which the Jews also believe correct, one of them is that Satan is the ruler of this world. But Jews maintain that Satan does no more than God allows, from what I've read of their beliefs.

This would place Satan within God's control, meaning that God is responsible for evil as well as good, and Isaiah 45:7 would agree, along with Amos 3:6.

In the New testament, in Matthew 4 and Luke 4, we see that Satan has the power over world governments, and made the claim to Jesus that such power was his to give.

But governments and religions are based on linear, finite, hopefully logical systems of organization. As a result, and due to Godel's theorem, the natural result of such systems is an increasing infinity of similar processes.

As such, Assuming Satan is in control, his goal would be not an understanding of peaceful processes of settlement, but continual confusion and warfare to keep people under control by confusion.

The people themselves, in attempting to define God by logical, linear, rational principles, contribute to this expanding diversity of ideas about truth, "ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of truth".

Satan, at his very best, can never represent truth. he can represent portions of it, or he can make us think that certain systems are superior to others and ought to be obeyed, but he can never reduce our thoughts to a singular process that represents truth,since that process in itself would cancel his authority.

If Satan indeed is the author of lies, and the truth is not in him, then we would have to conclude that Satan, no matter how brilliant, is no more capable of recognizing truth in one package than we are. "He" would be governed by the same mathematical principles of which Godel's theorem is a part. This would mean that Satan is no more than a computer, operating by the same physical laws, however, advanced, as any computer.

Seth Lloyd has stated that the universe is a quantum computer, that there is no difference between the two. But it is impossible to develop an information string that would be equivalent to the universe, basically because we can't separate random strings from strings of actual information necessary to make the universe function. The ability to make such distinctions would require near infinite knowledge.

Assuming the above conclusions are correct, the best we could hope to achieve is equality with Satan, since our natural minds can discover no process by which we can function according to God's will.

Satan is a computer, subject to limits of computation, and our brains are computers, subject to the same restraints of physics.

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Old 10-15-2009, 03:04 PM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

Because humans invented the computer, that doesn't mean God is a computer nerd. I don't believe God needs mathamatics, calculus or computers to function.

Doojie, your assumptions about God are entirely secular and do not reveal the nature of supernatural beings. We don't have to do mathmatical calculations to understand that Satan and people have natural inclinations to rebel. For Satan, it is to seek power over the universe. For humans, it is to seek power and social recognition on earth. Furthermore, it doesn't require specialized knowledge of math to understand that humans have choices and choices are a consequence of freewill. If it were no so, then we would be robots or, depending on culture and socialization, we would all be similar. More than anything else, freewill explains individuality.

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Old 10-15-2009, 04:28 PM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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Because humans invented the computer, that doesn't mean God is a computer nerd. I don't believe God needs mathamatics, calculus or computers to function. ....
Yeah...I'll have to agree. It seems the difference is as stark as the difference between digital and analog. We operate on an abstract level....and I make the leap that God is representative of that.

There might be relevant formulas....but we don't know what they are.

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Old 10-15-2009, 06:22 PM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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Because humans invented the computer, that doesn't mean God is a computer nerd. I don't believe God needs mathamatics, calculus or computers to function
Don't just say it, Support it with an explanation, why do you believe what you think is true ???

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Yeah...I'll have to agree. It seems the difference is as stark as the difference between digital and analog. We operate on an abstract level....and I make the leap that God is representative of that.There might be relevant formulas....but we don't know what they are.
OK, GOD is everything, and so it's becomes obvious GOD knows all things an (abstract) NOT. To most this is one, to myself not even close. It's a given. Therefore GOD is mathematics, Calulus and computors.
I think the time to know the formulas which lead to truth is upon us. nothing is given. We will have earned everything we recieve. Most the majority will not be paying attention-distracted by LIFE.

Quote:
Doojie, your assumptions about God are entirely secular and do not reveal the nature of supernatural beings.
There are three levels to existance each requires a different vibratory rate. The SPIRITUAL is the source/basis for the other two.

Quote:
We don't have to do mathmatical calculations to understand that Satan and people have natural inclinations to rebel.
I would like to think that there are higher reasons/motivations besides natural inclination. Maybe a need to understand/know more about the truth. All truth, good, bad and in-between.

Quote:
For Satan, it is to seek power over the universe.
Satan, L and D do not exist in the way put forth by religion.
So reasons given for this are moot and the truth of the matter is we give GOD and beings of more, greater, higher SPIRITUAL expression an agenda/need only fit for us or others like us. This to me makes no sense/logic.

Quote:
For humans, it is to seek power and social recognition on earth.
For the Egotists this is true, For myself I don't care to have power and control over anyone. As to social recognition you can keep this too. It will just get in my way.
I am here to help this world to understand as much as it will allow itself to understand. This is what has value to me. Everything else is nothing more than commentary (words in the wind)/cometary (a shot in the dark!) I will never stop.

Quote:
Furthermore, it doesn't require specialized knowledge of math to understand that humans have choices and choices are a consequence of freewill.
True, true so true. Never limit freewill it can suprise you in ways which we would never believe unless you see it. Freewill like truth and LOVE change or disappear when given a limited definition or meaning.
Stay open just as LOVE, freewill and the truth always will.

Quote:
If it were no so, then we would be robots or, depending on culture and socialization, we would all be similar. More than anything else, freewill explains individuality.
And don't forget SPIRITUAL growth/formation this will lead to a higher expression and more choices in the use of freewill. This S.G. is the whole point of the universe nothing more and nothing less.

PS. The SPIRITUAL will never ever touch or come in contact with matter. The reason is the vibratory differential is so great that for matter it comes apart atoms flying out in all directions in tangents.

FYI (for you are in formation)

A non-religious understanding of GOD
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Last edited by goodomen9 : 10-15-2009 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:07 PM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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Don't just say it, Support it with an explanation, why do you believe what you think is true ???



OK, GOD is everything, and so it's becomes obvious GOD knows all things an (abstract) NOT. To most this is one, to myself not even close. It's a given. Therefore GOD is mathematics, Calulus and computors.
I think the time to know the formulas which lead to truth is upon us. nothing is given. We will have earned everything we recieve. Most the majority will not be paying attention-distracted by LIFE.



There are three levels to existance each requires a different vibratory rate. The SPIRITUAL is the source/basis for the other two.



I would like to think that there are higher reasons/motivations besides natural inclination. Maybe a need to understand/know more about the truth, all truth good, bad and in-between.



Satan L and D do not exist in the way put forth by religion.

Furthermore, it doesn't require specialized knowledge of math to understand that humans have choices and choices are a consequence of freewill. If it were no so, then we would be robots or, depending on culture and socialization, we would all be similar. More than anything else, freewill explains individuality.
[/quote]

My explanation for why I think there is more to God than algorithms is that the spiritual world is based on nonmaterial substance with no time limitations. It is my belief that as soon as God departed from paradise time and dying became parameters for life. God and other heaven beings are outside materialism, space, and time found only in the universe. Science will never understand or penetrate heaven's nonmaterial world. Science and technology can only advance understanding of the universe, not God and other heavenly beings.


Last edited by Cnance : 10-16-2009 at 09:53 AM.
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  #16  
Old 10-15-2009, 09:00 PM
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goodomen9 goodomen9 is offline
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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My explanation for why I think there is more to God than algorithms is that the spiritual world is based on nonmaterial substance with no time limitations.
True the nonphysical is closer to the SPIRITUAL. But the nonphysical is an expression of the SPIRITUAL or is based upon this. You see without the nonphysical, matter or the physical would not be possible. If there is the SPIRITUAL and the physical then it would go to follow that if nothing seperates the two they would be the same thing. The nonphysical is not the SPIRITUAL and the SPIRITUAL will never be a world it's a reality, the nonphysical is not the SPIRITUAL it separates two realities.

Quote:
It is my belief that as soon as God departed from paradise time and dying became parameters for life. God and other heaven beings are outside materialism, space, and time found only in the universe. Science will never understand or penetrate heaven's nonmaterial world. Science and technology can only advance understanding of the universe, not God.
Blah, blah, blah, I don't do religion so I have no comment on the beginning of this paragraph so so religionist like. If you believe what you just wrote far be of me to disagree. I guess we are the first LIFE to exist in the universe and GOD is a carpenter/handyman does the work, builds and creates then goes back to where it came from. NOT

FYI(for you are in formation)
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  #17  
Old 10-16-2009, 02:28 AM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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Originally Posted by goodomen9 View Post
OK, GOD is everything, and so it's becomes obvious GOD knows all things an (abstract) NOT. To most this is one, to myself not even close. It's a given. Therefore GOD is mathematics, Calulus and computors.
I think the time to know the formulas which lead to truth is upon us. nothing is given. We will have earned everything we recieve. Most the majority will not be paying attention-distracted by LIFE.
I guess I'm not following you here. God is all things? God knows all things? Therefore, God is computers and math?

I don't know that God is all things or knows all things. But I firmly believe that computers are elementary. A clunky machine, simplistic in nature, and hardly representative of an all-knowing supernatural being.

Our Math? Well....fundamentally it is sound, but how do we know that we have discovered its true root? We only know what we know. What if there is something more that we have not discovered? A new algebraic law perhaps.

Sorry. I just couldn't follow your post very well.

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  #18  
Old 10-16-2009, 05:54 AM
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Re: Why isn't God in our material world?

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Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
Because humans invented the computer, that doesn't mean God is a computer nerd. I don't believe God needs mathamatics, calculus or computers to function.
If he did, then we would be able to access him. But Romans 8:7 cancels that. The natural mind, or the "computer" mind, is not subject to God.

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Doojie, your assumptions about God are entirely secular and do not reveal the nature of supernatural beings.
Again, you merelyt make my point. If there is a nature to supernatural knowledge, or beings, then define that nature. But once you do, it then becomes subject to language, which is subject to algorithms, which is subject to programming. The minute you claim to define the nature of supernatural beings, you enter a trap from which you cannot escape.





Quote:
Furthermore, it doesn't require specialized knowledge of math to understand that humans have choices and choices are a consequence of freewill. If it were no so, then we would be robots or, depending on culture and socialization, we would all be similar. More than anything else, freewill explains individuality.
Obviously, but if we did have kowledge of supernatural beings, there wouldn't be 38,000 varieties of christianity and growing. Your statements at some point must resolve to proof, and if you establish that proof, then it does in fact become subject to mathematical knowledge and algorithms.


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