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  #19  
Old 10-02-2009, 07:52 AM
malchediel malchediel is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by sparques View Post
I would like to advise everyone not to answer this question or any like it. There are plenty of circular arguments going on in this forum regarding God Vs Science.

The question is.....What Was Before?

Sorry Mal....I felt compelled to interject.
LOL... I understand. but I must say that God explains it best...

"before there was, I AM". God has always been and God will always be.

-me
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  #20  
Old 10-02-2009, 08:11 AM
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by malchediel View Post
LOL... I understand. but I must say that God explains it best...

"before there was, I AM". God has always been and God will always be.

-me
Contradicting himself. If God exist, somebody created him.

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  #21  
Old 10-02-2009, 08:16 AM
malchediel malchediel is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by BorisZ View Post
Contradicting himself. If God exist, somebody created him.
Let me ask you .... if God exist, then somebody created Him... we exist- who created us?

Or do you fall into that "something exploded out of absolutely nothing" which defies both logic and science...?

-me
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  #22  
Old 10-02-2009, 08:49 AM
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by malchediel View Post

Or do you fall into that "something exploded out of absolutely nothing" which defies both logic and science...?

-me
You did not study Big Bang theory. Universe did not explode from nothing, it exploded from super-condense matter. I would say about 90-95% of scientists agree with this theory, do it does not defy logic and science.

Quote:
Let me ask you .... if God exist, then somebody created Him... we exist- who created us?
Nobody created us directly, we evolved. Beginning of life is still a question. Was life created accidentally or some alien race seeded our planet?

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  #23  
Old 10-02-2009, 10:39 AM
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by BorisZ View Post
Contradicting himself....
Yep...I respectfully withdraw from this discussion. My apologies

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  #24  
Old 10-02-2009, 03:30 PM
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Spector567 Spector567 is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by malchediel View Post
Ok, here's a place for you fanatics of evolution and so forth to post YOUR views ...
These so called fanatics based there belief on the information gathered over the past 100 years by the brightest minds on the planet and will still be willing to change there mind when new information becomes available.

I personally would qualify creationsts closer to fanatics since they stick to there belief not matter what. Having the disposal of mass amounts of information and being able to ignore it, think they know more about it than experts on a one page article or unable or unwilling to look it up. A simple google search will answer most of the questions.

Quote:
Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal, particularly for an extreme religious or political cause or in some cases sports, or with an obsessive enthusiasm for a pastime or hobby. Philosopher George Santayana defines fanaticism as "redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim"; according to Winston Churchill, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject". By either description the fanatic displays very strict standards and little tolerance for contrary ideas or opinions.
Quote:
However, before you do ---- qualify it with HOW it started. You see, it's just not enough to say this became that. No, start it off with HOW it BEGAN in the first place.
By your very own definition you can no longer use the Bible as a basis for your scientific information. You have now removed it from the argument. If you or anyone tries to apply one set of rules for the bible and another for science it becomes a hypocritical remark.

The beginning of the Big Bang Theory:

Extrapolation of the expansion of the Universe backwards in time using general relativity yields an infinite density and temperature at a finite time in the past. This singularity signals the breakdown of general relativity. How closely we can extrapolate towards the singularity is debated—certainly not earlier than the Planck epoch. The early hot, dense phase is itself referred to as "the Big Bang",and is considered the "birth" of our Universe. Based on measurements of the expansion using Type Ia supernovae, measurements of temperature fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background, and measurements of the correlation function of galaxies, the Universe has a calculated age of 13.73 ± 0.12 billion years.The agreement of these three independent measurements strongly supports the ΛCDM model that describes in detail the contents of the Universe.
The earliest phases of the Big Bang are subject to much speculation. In the most common models, the Universe was filled homogeneously and isotropically with an incredibly high energy density, huge temperatures and pressures, and was very rapidly expanding and cooling. Approximately 10−37 seconds into the expansion, a phase transition caused a cosmic inflation, during which the Universe grew exponentially. After inflation stopped, the Universe consisted of a quark-gluon plasma, as well as all other elementary particles. Temperatures were so high that the random motions of particles were at relativistic speeds, and particle-antiparticle pairs of all kinds were being continuously created and destroyed in collisions. At some point an unknown reaction called baryogenesis violated the conservation of baryon number, leading to a very small excess of quarks and leptons over antiquarks and anti-leptons—of the order of 1 part in 30 million. This resulted in the predominance of matter over antimatter in the present Universe.
The Universe continued to grow in size and fall in temperature, hence the typical energy of each particle was decreasing. Symmetry breaking phase transitions put the fundamental forces of physics and the parameters of elementary particles into their present form. After about 10−11 seconds, the picture becomes less speculative, since particle energies drop to values that can be attained in particle physics experiments. At about 10−6 seconds, quarks and gluons combined to form baryons such as protons and neutrons. The small excess of quarks over antiquarks led to a small excess of baryons over antibaryons. The temperature was now no longer high enough to create new proton-antiproton pairs (similarly for neutrons-antineutrons), so a mass annihilation immediately followed, leaving just one in 1010 of the original protons and neutrons, and none of their antiparticles. A similar process happened at about 1 second for electrons and positrons. After these annihilations, the remaining protons, neutrons and electrons were no longer moving relativistically and the energy density of the Universe was dominated by photons (with a minor contribution from neutrinos).
A few minutes into the expansion, when the temperature was about a billion (one thousand million; 109; SI prefix giga-) kelvins and the density was about that of air, neutrons combined with protons to form the Universe's deuterium and helium nuclei in a process called Big Bang nucleosynthesis. Most protons remained uncombined as hydrogen nuclei. As the Universe cooled, the rest mass energy density of matter came to gravitationally dominate that of the photon radiation. After about 379,000 years the electrons and nuclei combined into atoms (mostly hydrogen); hence the radiation decoupled from matter and continued through space largely unimpeded. This relic radiation is known as the cosmic microwave background radiation.
Over a long period of time, the slightly denser regions of the nearly uniformly distributed matter gravitationally attracted nearby matter and thus grew even denser, forming gas clouds, stars, galaxies, and the other astronomical structures observable today. The details of this process depend on the amount and type of matter in the Universe. The three possible types of matter are known as cold dark matter, hot dark matter and baryonic matter. The best measurements available (from WMAP) show that the dominant form of matter in the Universe is cold dark matter. The other two types of matter make up less than 18% of the matter in the Universe.
Independent lines of evidence from Type Ia supernovae and the CMB imply the Universe today is dominated by a mysterious form of energy known as dark energy, which apparently permeates all of space. The observations suggest 72% of the total energy density of today's Universe is in this form. When the Universe was very young, it was likely infused with dark energy, but with less space and everything closer together, gravity had the upper hand, and it was slowly braking the expansion. But eventually, after numerous billion years of expansion, the growing abundance of dark energy caused the expansion of the Universe to slowly begin to accelerate. Dark energy in its simplest formulation takes the form of the cosmological constant term in Einstein's field equations of general relativity, but its composition and mechanism are unknown and, more generally, the details of its equation of state and relationship with the Standard Model of particle physics continue to be investigated both observationally and theoretically.
Underlying assumptions
The Big Bang theory depends on two major assumptions: the universality of physical laws, and the Cosmological Principle. The cosmological principle states that on large scales the Universe is homogeneous and isotropic.
These ideas were initially taken as postulates, but today there are efforts to test each of them. For example, the first assumption has been tested by observations showing that largest possible deviation of the fine structure constant over much of the age of the Universe is of order 10−5. Also, General Relativity has passed stringent tests on the scale of the solar system and binary stars while extrapolation to cosmological scales has been validated by the empirical successes of various aspects of the Big Bang theory.
If the large-scale Universe appears isotropic as viewed from Earth, the cosmological principle can be derived from the simpler Copernican Principle, which states that there is no preferred (or special) observer or vantage point. To this end, the cosmological principle has been confirmed to a level of 10−5 via observations of the CMB. The Universe has been measured to be homogeneous on the largest scales at the 10% level.
Lambda-CDM model

ΛCDM or Lambda-CDM is an abbreviation for Lambda-Cold Dark Matter. It is frequently referred to as the concordance model of big bang cosmology, since it attempts to explain cosmic microwave background observations, as well as large scale structure observations and supernovae observations of the accelerating expansion of the universe. It is the simplest known model that is in general agreement with observed phenomena.

General relativity is a metric theory of gravitation. At its core are Einstein's equations, which describe the relation between the geometry of a four-dimensional, semi-Riemannian manifold representing spacetime on the one hand, and the energy-momentum contained in that spacetime on the other. Phenomena that in classical mechanics are ascribed to the action of the force of gravity (such as free-fall, orbital motion, and spacecraft trajectories), correspond to inertial motion within a curved geometry of spacetime in general relativity; there is no gravitational force deflecting objects from their natural, straight paths. Instead, gravity corresponds to changes in the properties of space and time, which in turn changes the straightest-possible paths that objects will naturally follow. The curvature is, in turn, caused by the energy-momentum of matter. Paraphrasing the relativist John Archibald Wheeler, spacetime tells matter how to move; matter tells spacetime how to curve.
While general relativity replaces the scalar gravitational potential of classical physics by a symmetric rank-two tensor, the latter reduces to the former in certain limiting cases. For weak gravitational fields and slow speed relative to the speed of light, the theory's predictions converge on those of Newton's law of universal gravitation.
As it is constructed using tensors, general relativity exhibits general covariance: its laws—and further laws formulated within the general relativistic framework—take on the same form in all coordinate systems.Furthermore, the theory does not contain any invariant geometric background structures. It thus satisfies a more stringent general principle of relativity, namely that the laws of physics are the same for all observers.Locally, as expressed in the equivalence principle, spacetime is Minkowskian, and the laws of physics exhibit local Lorentz invariance.


You understood all that right? I could simplify it further for you but than someone would tell me something came from nothing and we'd be back where we started.


Once your done digesting that I'll post the next part. I should be able to go through the entire theory all the proofs and arguments in about lets say a month. However, It may take several years if I have to break it down to general relativity and the universal constant of matter.


Who said speed typing classes and were a waste.


Last edited by Spector567 : 10-02-2009 at 03:37 PM.
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  #25  
Old 10-02-2009, 03:51 PM
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LogicallyYours LogicallyYours is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

Quote:
Originally Posted by malchediel View Post
Let me ask you .... if God exist, then somebody created Him... we exist- who created us?

Or do you fall into that "something exploded out of absolutely nothing" which defies both logic and science...?

-me
Your hypocrisy shines!

Why is it you don't demand the same level of proof for the existence of God, the Flood, the Resurrection or any of the other biblical myths?

I know why.
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  #26  
Old 10-02-2009, 03:53 PM
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by BorisZ View Post
You did not study Big Bang theory. Universe did not explode from nothing, it exploded from super-condense matter. I would say about 90-95% of scientists agree with this theory, do it does not defy logic and science.



Nobody created us directly, we evolved. Beginning of life is still a question. Was life created accidentally or some alien race seeded our planet?
Not too mention, there is evidence to support the Big Bang theory.
__________________
"Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
-----------------------------------------------------------
"I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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  #27  
Old 10-02-2009, 07:44 PM
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Cnance Cnance is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

Understanding how something comes from nothing defies logic. The only way to approach this problem is to get outside of the specifics of creation. Viewing from the other side may allow us to see basic causes. To get there you have to transend time and space and be in another dimension of reality, one based on God. Unless you can discover a scientific explanation for why something came from nothing, this is all you're left with. Because no man has been there, no one can provide an explanation. Despite this proviso, I will step into the unknown and tell you what I think God was up to when he created the universe.

God already had spiritual bodies in heaven so he had no need to create another world. Besides, His spiritual world of heavenly beings with eternal life far surpases any life form or creation of God's in the universe. So why did he do it?

He did it, as I have humorous posted on another thread, to imprison Satan. God could have destroyed Satan, but, instead, he chose to incarcerate him for eternity.

Actually, there is some interesting scientific data to support my contention that Satan and his dark angels have disrupted the orderly creation of the universe. I can't recall details, but shortly after the big bang, maybe two billion years, the symetrical order and evolution of gallaxies and planets took a bumpy turn not explained by science.

Dark matter and new theories explaining this phenomena may explain disruptive influences of Satan and his cohorts.


Last edited by Cnance : 10-03-2009 at 10:47 AM.
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  #28  
Old 10-02-2009, 11:15 PM
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BorisZ BorisZ is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by Cnance View Post

Actually, there is some interesting scientific data to support my contention that Satan and his dark angels have disrupted the orderly creation of the universe.
I bet you are typing this with straight face. Hopeless.

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  #29  
Old 10-03-2009, 03:49 AM
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LogicallyYours LogicallyYours is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
Understanding how something comes from nothing defies logic. The only way to approach this problem is to get outside of the specifics of creation. Viewing from the other side may allow us to see basic causes. To get there you have to transend time and space and be in another dimension of reality, one based on God. Unless you can discover a scientific explanation for why something came from nothing, this is all you're left with. Because no man has been there, no one can provide an explanation. Despite this proviso, I will step into the unknown and tell you what I think God was up to when he created the universe.

God already had spiritual bodies in heaven so he had no need to create another world. Besides, His spiritual world of heavenly beings with eternal life far surpases any life form or creation of God's in the universe. So why did he do it?

He did it, as I have humorous posted on another thread, to imprison Satan. God could have destroyed Satan, but, instead, he chose to incarcerate him for eternity.

Actually, there is some interesting scientific data to support my contention that Satan and his dark angels have disrupted the orderly creation of the universe. I can't recall details. but shortly after the big bang, maybe two billion years, the symetrical order and evolution of gallaxies and planets took a bumpy turn not explained by science.

Dark matter and new theories explaining this phenomena may explain disruptive influences of Satan and his cohorts.
It might be the only way to approach it for someone who has given up intellectually or for someone who fails to understand the science.

Your position is a joke and logically flawed, not too mention, there is no evidence whatsoever of God or a god.

Also, to assume if A is wrong, therefore B is correct is wrong. What about C or D? And again, B, God is without empirical proof.
__________________
"Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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"I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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  #30  
Old 10-03-2009, 06:29 AM
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Blue Crab of PAIN!!! Blue Crab of PAIN!!! is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

Understanding the origins of the Universe lies within a realm of chemistry and quantam physics completely beyond any poster here. If you want a real answer to this question, you have to ask someone within the serious intellectual elite.
What you've done here is the equivalent of challenging a group of 6 year olds to explian where children come from; whether or not they come from a woman's vagina or if they come from storks.

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  #31  
Old 10-03-2009, 07:09 AM
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BorisZ BorisZ is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by Blue Crab of PAIN!!! View Post
What you've done here is the equivalent of challenging a group of 6 year olds to explian where children come from; whether or not they come from a woman's vagina or if they come from storks.
He is pretty sure they come from storks.

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  #32  
Old 10-03-2009, 11:02 AM
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Cnance Cnance is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
It might be the only way to approach it for someone who has given up intellectually or for someone who fails to understand the science.

Your position is a joke and logically flawed, not too mention, there is no evidence whatsoever of God or a god.

Also, to assume if A is wrong, therefore B is correct is wrong. What about C or D? And again, B, God is without empirical proof.
Yep, you got that right. However, since there is no empirical proof of God accept the absence of proof that he didn't create the universe, I'll stay with religious nonsense. Science is limited to explaning things we can observe or extrapolate from discrete data. Even forensic science is unable to solve the giagantic creation puzzle. Where do you find data prior to the big bang? Since there is no data available and we have the Bible to refer to as a source, why not look there?

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  #33  
Old 10-03-2009, 12:54 PM
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Spector567 Spector567 is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
Yep, you got that right. However, since there is no empirical proof of God accept the absence of proof that he didn't create the universe, I'll stay with religious nonsense. Science is limited to explaning things we can observe or extrapolate from discrete data. Even forensic science is unable to solve the giagantic creation puzzle. Where do you find data prior to the big bang? Since there is no data available and we have the Bible to refer to as a source, why not look there?
Because you assume the bible is a source. It isn't. It's philosophy. If you want to use colourful philosphy go ahead. Just don't replace a colourful idea with a real one or suggest that a real one isn't more important.

I personally thought your previous post was a satire of what belief was. Sadly I was mistaken.

You created a colourful excuse and tried to put words in gods mouth. Replacing a question to be answered with a made up fairytale answer of your own design.

Future generations will ask how does something work and you'd answer that the dark matter generator that would power our civilization is the deeds of satan.

Little lie big lie.

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  #34  
Old 10-03-2009, 01:03 PM
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
. Unless you can discover a scientific explanation for why something came from nothing, this is all you're left with. Because no man has been there, no one can provide an explanation. Despite this proviso, I will step into the unknown and tell you what I think God was up to when he created the universe.
First you assume there is a God, and you assume that somehow you have the ability to step outside time and space. Amazing.


[/quote]Actually, there is some interesting scientific data to support my contention that Satan and his dark angels have disrupted the orderly creation of the universe. I can't recall details, but shortly after the big bang, maybe two billion years, the symetrical order and evolution of gallaxies and planets took a bumpy turn not explained by science. [/quote]


So you supply the existence of something which no one can prove exists or ever exists to explain something which can't be explained. Again, amazing.

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Dark matter and new theories explaining this phenomena may explain disruptive influences of Satan and his cohorts.
If only you could prove there is a Satan or his cohorts.

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  #35  
Old 10-03-2009, 05:40 PM
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

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Originally Posted by Spector567 View Post
Because you assume the bible is a source. It isn't. It's philosophy. If you want to use colourful philosphy go ahead. Just don't replace a colourful idea with a real one or suggest that a real one isn't more important.

I personally thought your previous post was a satire of what belief was. Sadly I was mistaken.

You created a colourful excuse and tried to put words in gods mouth. Replacing a question to be answered with a made up fairytale answer of your own design.

Future generations will ask how does something work and you'd answer that the dark matter generator that would power our civilization is the deeds of satan.

Little lie big lie.
How do you know that my answer was a fairytale? Have you been on the other side? I am insulted. To dispute my version, you either have to come up with a scientifc explanation, or ask God what happened. I am afraid your caught in a trap. Thus far, no one has come up with an explanation of how something comes from nothing. Therefore, since you can't come up with such an explanation, you need to look at a supernatural one.


Last edited by Cnance : 10-03-2009 at 06:12 PM.
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  #36  
Old 10-03-2009, 05:43 PM
ProfHenryHiggins ProfHenryHiggins is offline
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Re: God didn't do it - it just explosed outta nuth

So why is it that, in the presence of a strong positive electrical charge, that electron-positron pairs spontaneously create themselves out of the vacuum, Cnance?

Something from nothing, and completely in accord with science.


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