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  #37  
Old 08-17-2009, 08:13 PM
Happy Medium Happy Medium is offline
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Re: Moral question?

have you ever actually seen a factory farm or slaughterhouse, goodomen?

treating animals "very badly" does not even begin to describe their boredom and loneliness isolated in pens and cages and their terror as they watch the animals ahead of them in the queue get inhumanely slaughtered.

while i have never been able to go fully vegetarian, i have a terrible time buying meat over the counter or packaged lunch meat anymore and stick mostly to fish that they can't torture the same way.

i come from a family of farmers, fishermen and hunters, too, so it isn't some silly new age liberalism talking.

our cattle and fowl were free-ranging milkers and egg-layers that rarely got eaten, but hey howdy, go kill bambi's daddy with a clean shot and let me help you dress him and eat him! catch a trout, walleye or bass and i'll filet the sucker while he's still flopping and fry him up for you.

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  #38  
Old 08-17-2009, 10:53 PM
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Re: Moral question?

i cant kill bambi either but i have no trouble chopin a fish head off!? i love fish/seafood and also am a vegetarian at heart but the ease of market shopping for animal meat is all it takes to get me barbecuing!? red meat has been cut back because of cost for me!? pork and foul are the mainstays now!? makes it nice to go out for a special occasion and order beef as it is a real treat then!?
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  #39  
Old 08-18-2009, 12:07 AM
Happy Medium Happy Medium is offline
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Re: Moral question?

chopping the head off a fish is too sloppy. you probably scale and gut them too which is a real mess and a whole lot of work.

get yourself a good filetting knife (one of those long skinny curved blades) and make sure its as sharp as you know how to make it. if the fish is still alive, kill it by cutting it's spine right behind the head.

lay him out on a board and starting from the tail, cut the filet loose from the body using the ribs to guide the knife. slice it loose from the skin. much easier, neater and no bones to work around when you eat it.

what's left makes a nice toy/treat for the kitty. just make sure you send her outside to play with it or you might find it stinking stashed under the corner of your carpet the next day.



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  #40  
Old 08-18-2009, 04:57 AM
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Lord_jag Lord_jag is offline
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Re: Moral question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Medium View Post
have you ever actually seen a factory farm or slaughterhouse, goodomen?

treating animals "very badly" does not even begin to describe their boredom and loneliness isolated in pens and cages and their terror as they watch the animals ahead of them in the queue get inhumanely slaughtered.

while i have never been able to go fully vegetarian, i have a terrible time buying meat over the counter or packaged lunch meat anymore and stick mostly to fish that they can't torture the same way.

i come from a family of farmers, fishermen and hunters, too, so it isn't some silly new age liberalism talking.

our cattle and fowl were free-ranging milkers and egg-layers that rarely got eaten, but hey howdy, go kill bambi's daddy with a clean shot and let me help you dress him and eat him! catch a trout, walleye or bass and i'll filet the sucker while he's still flopping and fry him up for you.

Watch the award-winning The Meatrix
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGk9ZRJo...emeatrix1.com/

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http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGk9ZRJo...emeatrix2.com/
I HAVE seen a slaughterhouse and I can tell you that that is a total exception, not a rule.

Most of the time they use an air powered pin mechanism for large animals. Within a tenth of a second they are humainly killed.

Smaller animals usually ride on a conveyor belt witha bright light above them. They instictually look up at a bright light and a large spinning blade knocks off all their heads in one swoop. Less than 1/10th of a second and they're all done.

How can you be more humain than that?

Do some processing plants abuse the animals? Damn straight, but not all of them.

Just like anything else, there are a few bad ones that ruin it for all of them.
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  #41  
Old 08-18-2009, 07:55 AM
Happy Medium Happy Medium is offline
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Re: Moral question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
I HAVE seen a slaughterhouse and I can tell you that that is a total exception, not a rule.

Most of the time they use an air powered pin mechanism for large animals. Within a tenth of a second they are humainly killed.

Smaller animals usually ride on a conveyor belt witha bright light above them. They instictually look up at a bright light and a large spinning blade knocks off all their heads in one swoop. Less than 1/10th of a second and they're all done.

How can you be more humain than that?

Do some processing plants abuse the animals? Damn straight, but not all of them.

Just like anything else, there are a few bad ones that ruin it for all of them.

that air hammer does not always kill with one shot.

a 'shochet' or rabbi who performs kosher slaughtering does one animal at a time completely out of sight of all the other animals waiting their turn to die.

many of them will pet the animal and not perform the kill with one knife stroke severing the spine until the animal is calm.

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  #42  
Old 08-18-2009, 01:49 PM
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Lord_jag Lord_jag is offline
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Re: Moral question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Medium View Post
that air hammer does not always kill with one shot.

a 'shochet' or rabbi who performs kosher slaughtering does one animal at a time completely out of sight of all the other animals waiting their turn to die.

many of them will pet the animal and not perform the kill with one knife stroke severing the spine until the animal is calm.
Yes, but the rabbi also just cuts them and waits for them to bleed to death.

That's not humain to me.

The air hammer almost always does kill in one shot... At least if it's been used correctly..
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I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
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  #43  
Old 08-18-2009, 05:15 PM
Happy Medium Happy Medium is offline
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Re: Moral question?

i've never seen them actually do it, but i'm told that the cut they use severs the spine as well as open the carotid. they claim death is instantaneous. they bleed them out because that's the way the rulebook is written. get to that level and the best answer to questioning why, the answer is invariably going to be because hashem told us to do it that way.

i have no idea what the real statistics are about the air hammer. never been near it.
we had a dairy farm and on the rare occasions we ate one, our hand took the critter in and brought back veal cutlets.

to me, almost always is more than 95% of the number of uses. more than 5% requiring more than one pop is a whole lot of terrorized animals.

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  #44  
Old 08-19-2009, 05:29 AM
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Lord_jag Lord_jag is offline
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Re: Moral question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Medium View Post
i've never seen them actually do it, but i'm told that the cut they use severs the spine as well as open the carotid. they claim death is instantaneous. they bleed them out because that's the way the rulebook is written. get to that level and the best answer to questioning why, the answer is invariably going to be because hashem told us to do it that way.

i have no idea what the real statistics are about the air hammer. never been near it.
we had a dairy farm and on the rare occasions we ate one, our hand took the critter in and brought back veal cutlets.

to me, almost always is more than 95% of the number of uses. more than 5% requiring more than one pop is a whole lot of terrorized animals.
Agreed, but if you had 5% failure of *anything*, you would look for a replacement right away.

Something as sensitive as killing an animal would likely be 100 times more stringent.
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I believe there will be a nuclear war in October of this year.
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  #45  
Old 08-19-2009, 10:43 AM
Happy Medium Happy Medium is offline
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Re: Moral question?

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Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
Agreed, but if you had 5% failure of *anything*, you would look for a replacement right away.

Something as sensitive as killing an animal would likely be 100 times more stringent.
hah! you must be in high-tech manufacturing or something where they actually do that kind of quality control monitoring.

i'm going to go out on a limb here and assert (without any evidence to back it up) that the meatpacking industry doesn't know the failure rate for their head cracker.

5% failure is just when manufacturers start worrying about the profitability of a process. i doubt if anybody in that industry cares much whether it takes one, two or even three whacks to kill a cow --- it doesn't slow the line down enough for it to be important.

it is surprising how big a margin for error can be included in the planning for assembly lines.

i think you're just being wishful about the industry actually caring that much about the suffering of the animals.

i had to get away from medical research just because of the animal cruelty and mutilation.

the only ones who care are the spca and peta --- the industry only cares if it affects their bottom line too much.


Last edited by Happy Medium : 08-19-2009 at 10:47 AM.
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  #46  
Old 09-07-2009, 08:09 PM
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lexx lexx is offline
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Re: Moral question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Medium View Post
chopping the head off a fish is too sloppy. you probably scale and gut them too which is a real mess and a whole lot of work.

get yourself a good filetting knife (one of those long skinny curved blades) and make sure its as sharp as you know how to make it. if the fish is still alive, kill it by cutting it's spine right behind the head.

lay him out on a board and starting from the tail, cut the filet loose from the body using the ribs to guide the knife. slice it loose from the skin. much easier, neater and no bones to work around when you eat it.

what's left makes a nice toy/treat for the kitty. just make sure you send her outside to play with it or you might find it stinking stashed under the corner of your carpet the next day.
i remember ordering fish in a fancy restaurant and having it served with tail and head still on!? thank god they at least gutted/scaled it!?
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  #47  
Old 09-07-2009, 08:12 PM
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Re: Moral question?

why does this conversation remind me of the latest version of "final destination"!?
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  #48  
Old 09-08-2009, 12:24 AM
gie2x gie2x is offline
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Re: Moral question?

As what God said in the bible,everything he created has a purpose..animals are likewise created for food and so on...the only sad part of this man killed so many that makes it endangered..no more for our future siblings

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  #49  
Old 09-08-2009, 02:36 AM
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Lord_jag Lord_jag is offline
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Re: Moral question?

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Originally Posted by gie2x View Post
As what God said in the bible,everything he created has a purpose..animals are likewise created for food and so on...the only sad part of this man killed so many that makes it endangered..no more for our future siblings
Yeah... but God is imaginary.

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  #50  
Old 09-08-2009, 02:30 PM
malchediel malchediel is offline
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Re: Moral question?

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Originally Posted by Lord_jag View Post
Yeah... but God is imaginary.
No, what you believe in is. I mean, God explains all. Which part do you you believe in (to your satisfaction), which PART. God explains it all.

The ONLY imaginary thing here is trying to fit all of the different 'sciences' in how the earth, much less the universe in it's WHOLE came to be about.

-me
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  #51  
Old 09-08-2009, 02:37 PM
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Re: Moral question?

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Originally Posted by malchediel View Post
No, what you believe in is. I mean, God explains all. Which part do you you believe in (to your satisfaction), which PART. God explains it all.

The ONLY imaginary thing here is trying to fit all of the different 'sciences' in how the earth, much less the universe in it's WHOLE came to be about.

-me
God explains all? God doesn't explain anything. God is an excuse for those who lack the understanding or motivation to learn.
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  #52  
Old 09-08-2009, 02:51 PM
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sparques sparques is offline
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Re: Moral question?

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Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
God explains all? God doesn't explain anything. God is an excuse for those who lack the understanding or motivation to learn.
I respectfully disagree. I've spent the vast majority of my life dedicated to the scientific view of things, and a few years ago, I would have argued right along side you on this. But, I've found that God does explain a great many things and is not a cop-out from learning. In fact, it requires a new discipline.

Now, granted, there are those who just fill in the gaps. But not all. I feel I have a greater understanding of civilization as a whole....something that pure scientific disciplines can not touch, due to their analytical nature.

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  #53  
Old 09-08-2009, 02:54 PM
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LogicallyYours LogicallyYours is offline
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Re: Moral question?

Sound fine. Please post something that God explains.
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  #54  
Old 09-08-2009, 03:00 PM
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sparques sparques is offline
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Re: Moral question?

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Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
Sound fine. Please post something that God explains.
Not to get too deep into this, but if you look at civilization as a living thing....a human. And compare its beginnings with that of an infant, you can correlate human developmental cycles with that of the development of civilization as a whole. Putting us now in a sort of adolescence.

From a spiritual perpective, it makes sense that God would design it that way.

That's a nutshell explanation


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