CHEAP Labor?

[bogie]

Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth

But...it really is!

not even close

[goodwitchofthesouth]

But it is. If there is no pay off there is no incentive or draw, or lure.

Either we have laws that are to be followed or we dont and when do we start
picking and choosing which ones we want to obey???? It is against the law
to enter another country without permission/documentation. It is against the
law to steal, murder, deprive one of civil rights, etc. Do we get to choose
which one we like??????? Wlhich ones we dont like???

What part of "illegal" doesnt matter????

[bogie]

Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth

But it is. If there is no pay off there is no incentive or draw, or lure.

Either we have laws that are to be followed or we dont and when do we start
picking and choosing which ones we want to obey???? It is against the law
to enter another country without permission/documentation. It is against the
law to steal, murder, deprive one of civil rights, etc. Do we get to choose
which one we like??????? Wlhich ones we dont like???

What part of "illegal" doesnt matter????

No part of illegal matters to a mexican family wanting to head north. Their motives for breaking the law is much stronger than anything you could possibly do to enforce those laws effectively. Do you think the border states simply don't want to enforce the law? Of course they do. They feel the pinch more than anybody and have the strongest motives for controlling immigration. If you live in one of those states you know that. But they simply do not have the resources for a problem this big and they never will. That includes controlling the workplace as well as controlling the border. That's why I keep saying that illegal immigration is a huge problem for the US. Now let's look at the ENTIRE picture and come up with REAL solutions that are POSSIBLE to put into play.

[Joe Sixpack]

Short of moving our border south to the Diego Ramirez Island, and putting a Macky D's and a Wally World on every street corner in South America???

We already have more people on welfare than ever before?? More people cross the border illegally than ever before?? More hospitals are closing than ever before?? Doctors are leaving their profession for higher wages in other lucrative careers than ever before?? More people work harder and see less results from their work than ever before?? ;)

Making the world a better place to live in certainly won’t help the bottom line? Creating more profits, and richer billionaires?? Oh my Gaud, gag me with a designer toilet brush, fer shure!!

When the going gets rough the rich under pay someone else to do it for them!

War, utter chaos, and turmoil is what elevates the elite’s of the world, to a higher level of supremacy?

History doesn’t lie, it just gets misinterpreted, over and over and over…!!

Peace and tranquility = lazy and non-productive!!

[bogie]

Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack

Short of moving our border south to the Diego Ramirez Island, and putting a Macky D's and a Wally World on every street corner in South America???

We already have more people on welfare than ever before?? More people cross the border illegally than ever before?? More hospitals are closing than ever before?? Doctors are leaving their profession for higher wages in other lucrative careers than ever before?? More people work harder and see less results from their work than ever before?? ;)

Making the world a better place to live in certainly won’t help the bottom line? Creating more profits, and richer billionaires?? Oh my Gaud, gag me with a designer toilet brush, fer shure!!

When the going gets rough the rich under pay someone else to do it for them!

War, utter chaos, and turmoil is what elevates the elite’s of the world, to a higher level of supremacy?

History doesn’t lie, it just gets misinterpreted, over and over and over…!!

Peace and tranquility = lazy and non-productive!!

Your world seems to be a miserable place for you joe. My condolences.

[Joe Sixpack]

Good Witch the only laws that "will" be enforced are the tax laws, seatbelt laws, truancy laws, and the laws against non-violent pot smokers? All the rest are negotiable, depending on the legal representation you can afford!!

[Joe Sixpack]

Bogie;

Your world seems to be a miserable place for you joe. My condolences.

Reality is a harder pill to swallow for some than others, Bogie. You just refuse to accept reality, and consider yourself the "norm", which means you are the one that doesn't get it, my friend? My world is exceptional, compared to most people on the planet! We, you and I, are the exception, not the rule?? It's the world around us, and where it goes from here, today, that concerns me. We can’t change yesterday…

I keep trying to tell you it's not about me, and it certainly isn't about you either!!

[goodwitchofthesouth]

Originally Posted by bogie

No part of illegal matters to a mexican family wanting to head north. Their motives for breaking the law is much stronger than anything you could possibly do to enforce those laws effectively. Do you think the border states simply don't want to enforce the law? Of course they do. They feel the pinch more than anybody and have the strongest motives for controlling immigration. If you live in one of those states you know that. But they simply do not have the resources for a problem this big and they never will. That includes controlling the workplace as well as controlling the border. That's why I keep saying that illegal immigration is a huge problem for the US. Now let's look at the ENTIRE picture and come up with REAL solutions that are POSSIBLE to put into play.

The issue is not that the agents cannot control the problem but that the
government has another agenda and binds the hands of law enforcement.
And if someone comes in here on an "illegal" first act does it ever change??
OF course not. That is another culture which they are intent on planting
here, language, the common practice of drinking till drunk, driving drunk,
a level of violence that is higher than average in this country....till now...
living in huge groups which in towns of any size is against codes and is
a violation, just to name a few problems created by illegal aliens...oh and
the gangs from Mexico and OTMs. And we need to embrace them????
You can if you wish, bring a few families into your home if you think they
need embracing. :p

[goodwitchofthesouth]

Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack

Good Witch the only laws that "will" be enforced are the tax laws, seatbelt laws, truancy laws, and the laws against non-violent pot smokers? All the rest are negotiable, depending on the legal representation you can afford!!

Oh boy, have you ever got that right!!!! The laws only apply to American
citizens as the rules of the road only apply to us and not to the 100 Mexican
trucking companies to be let loose on our interstates.

[goodwitchofthesouth]

Originally Posted by bogie

Your world seems to be a miserable place for you joe. My condolences.

Bogie, with all due respect, "our" world, yours, mine and 6packs is in grave
danger of changing forever and not for the better.

The black comedy in all this is that this invasion intends to change America
yet they have not a clue that they will change it into what they fled. :rolleyes:
A part of me will sit back and say "told ya"! :D

[bogie]

Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack

I keep trying to tell you it's not about me, and it certainly isn't about you either!!

Of course not.

[bogie]

Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth

And we need to embrace them????

Of course not. You and I agree on that. What we disagree on is what will work in correcting the problem.

You can if you wish, bring a few families into your home if you think they
need embracing. :p

This is the perfect example of the kind of rhetoric that is so often spewed about and contributes absolutely nothing to your goal and mine of eliminating illegal immigration. Why not redirect your wit towards comming up with plausible solutions to the problem?

[bogie]

Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth

Bogie, with all due respect, "our" world, yours, mine and 6packs is in grave
danger of changing forever and not for the better.

We've already established that you and joe disagree with me about this "danger". I would think we could move on.

The black comedy in all this is that this invasion intends to change America
yet they have not a clue that they will change it into what they fled. :rolleyes:
A part of me will sit back and say "told ya"! :D

That could be. I always wished that I too could predict the future. :)

[Joe Sixpack]

I can only assume you have nothing Bogie, otherwise you would offer a suggestion or a "if only we could..." example??

This country is being held hostage by a two party political system playing each end, against the middle, and they are winning. Neither sides leaders is seriously going to consider a reasonable resolve to the situation because, neither side really wants it to stop. Stopping illegals and having to pay realistic wages to Americans will not do well for the profits on the stock market, and bottom line that is bad for business and bad for their pencil whipped economy!!

So any suggestion that will have a positive results (for the average American) will be immediately discredited or the individual who brings it forth will be destroyed on a personal level to see to it that it is nipped in the bud. That or our political representatives (not hardly) will go through the motions of change, without accomplishing a whole lot, other than putting a few well placed dollars in their pockets, and some of their close and personal friends and/or family.

That wall they are talking about will never get completed, even if they start building it. They will determine it's uselessness and stop the operation, but not before they make a good show of it, and pocket a lot of money from it. There are more tunnels and ways of getting past the fences they do have already?? Building another one only creates new innovative ways of getting around, under, or through it!!!

The jobs is what they seek and as long as the jobs are available they will continue to come?

I have sat in my truck in Douglas Arizona, at lunch time, and watched them hop the fence less than 100 yards from the port of entry, to eat lunch at home in Agua Prieta and come right back after they eat, hop the fence again, and go back to work in the factories, dry cleaners, and other businesses, less than 50 yards from the fence. Everybody who runs the town (politically elected officials) get their cut and the Chief of Police and the mayor at the time, were related to half the folks on both sides of the border?? You can't miss them, they look like ants going through their daily routines, several times a day?? How do you suggest that it be stopped, when so many of our public officials have their hands in the kitty, to insure it's success?

The Border Patrols office in Arizona is in Tucson on Ajo Road, over 60 miles from the border? Why do you suppose they are not on the border where they could do the most efficient job?? Shift changes provide a 2 hour window for most of the regulars who cross the border in hordes, and the same is true in California? Good Witch is exactly right, the government is a co-conspirator in this illegal endeavor, even though they say they are on our side!

[Leeguana]

Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth

The issue is not that the agents cannot control the problem but that the
government has another agenda and binds the hands of law enforcement.
And if someone comes in here on an "illegal" first act does it ever change??
OF course not. That is another culture which they are intent on planting
here, language, the common practice of drinking till drunk, driving drunk,
a level of violence that is higher than average in this country....till now...
living in huge groups which in towns of any size is against codes and is
a violation, just to name a few problems created by illegal aliens...oh and
the gangs from Mexico and OTMs. And we need to embrace them????
You can if you wish, bring a few families into your home if you think they
need embracing. :p

I thought most of them came here to get better wages, create a better life for themselves and their families, etc.

Let me know if I'm misinterpreting you again, but you seem to be saying (actually, you DID say it) "they are intent on planting here, language, the common practice of drinking till drunk, driving drunk, a level of violence that is higher than average in this country."

So you mean we're being taken over by non-english speaking, drunk driving, violent Mexicans? That's pretty scary, I think I better emigrate to Canada. :confused:

[bogie]

Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack

I can only assume you have nothing Bogie, otherwise you would offer a suggestion or a "if only we could..." example??

Indeed I do not have many answers. Some of the suggestions here about inforcing immigration laws is a step in the right direction but it by itself will accomplish absolutely nothing and cost a fortune if you could do it at all. The point is joe, there simply is no silver bullet. This issue is huge and just dealing with it at home is not workable. Arresting 12 million illegals will do no more good than arresting cocain users even if you could. You seem to think that I don't agree with you that there is a problem here. There certainly is and it's huge. But until we look at it from all points of view we will never develope a workable strategy.

This country is being held hostage by a two party political system playing each end, against the middle, and they are winning. Neither sides leaders is seriously going to consider a reasonable resolve to the situation because, neither side really wants it to stop.

We're in agreement here. The illegal alien issue is a third rail politically just as is social security. Touch that rail and you're fried when hispanics head to the polls.

Stopping illegals and having to pay realistic wages to Americans will not do well for the profits on the stock market, and bottom line that is bad for business and bad for their pencil whipped economy!!

Again we agree. But there is absolutely nothing that can be done about any of it.

So any suggestion that will have a positive results (for the average American) will be immediately discredited or the individual who brings it forth will be destroyed on a personal level to see to it that it is nipped in the bud. That or our political representatives (not hardly) will go through the motions of change, without accomplishing a whole lot, other than putting a few well placed dollars in their pockets, and some of their close and personal friends and/or family.

We really do agree alot here. Your making my point that the issue is huge and deep rooted. You speak of the misdoings in our country but look at mexico. Their government makes ours look like boy scouts. Mexico is one of the largest oil producers in the world and the state owned company is technically bankrupt. The resorces are available to create a great place to live in mexico which will go along way toward helping our problem. With the economy that oil could spark mexican workers would be paid a fair wage along with taxes that could further improve the infrastructure. How much do you think just good clean running ***** and reliable electricity would help people to be more happy with their homeland? It won't solve everything but it's a beginning.

That wall they are talking about will never get completed, even if they start building it. They will determine it's uselessness and stop the operation, but not before they make a good show of it, and pocket a lot of money from it. There are more tunnels and ways of getting past the fences they do have already?? Building another one only creates new innovative ways of getting around, under, or through it!!!

Agreed.

The jobs is what they seek and as long as the jobs are available they will continue to come?

Yep. But again. There is no practical way to enforce that.

I have sat in my truck in Douglas Arizona, at lunch time, and watched them hop the fence less than 100 yards from the port of entry, to eat lunch at home in Agua Prieta and come right back after they eat, hop the fence again, and go back to work in the factories, dry cleaners, and other businesses, less than 50 yards from the fence. Everybody who runs the town (politically elected officials) get their cut and the Chief of Police and the mayor at the time, were related to half the folks on both sides of the border?? You can't miss them, they look like ants going through their daily routines, several times a day?? How do you suggest that it be stopped, when so many of our public officials have their hands in the kitty, to insure it's success?

Exactly. And it's clear that you are more in touch with the situation than I am. But although I don't witness them comming accross, we californians do see the effects of their presence.

The Border Patrols office in Arizona is in Tucson on Ajo Road, over 60 miles from the border? Why do you suppose they are not on the border where they could do the most efficient job?? Shift changes provide a 2 hour window for most of the regulars who cross the border in hordes, and the same is true in California? Good Witch is exactly right, the government is a co-conspirator in this illegal endeavor, even though they say they are on our side!

We really do agree on the problem Joe. They seem to be bored with enforcing the laws in arizon. Here's a story you might like that shows some of the other side of the coin. I apologize for it's length so you might want to grab a beer.

I use to own a flying operation in Hailey, ID. Finding decent pilots was a real challenge for many reasons that don't really matter. When I was really desperate for some help I found an ad in one of the national aviation periodicals. This fellow, Renato Gross was his name, had just finished about four years of college and flying obtaining all of his comercial and instrument ratings in florida and was looking to work here in the US. He was a citizen of Peru and back in the seventies nobody gave much thought to right to work and such. I didn't even know to ask but he brought up the fact that he was in the country on a visa.

He moved his few assets, mostly a suitcase full of clothes, and truged accross the continent to come to work. He fell in love with Idaho and was one of the best employees I ever had. Allways on time. Honest, dependable and a pretty damn good stick. [Flying speak. You know. The right stuff. Scuse me while I puke.]

Anyway. About two years later up drives a government sedan. You guessed it. Two INS agents. Turns out Nato, that's what he went by, had an education visa that expired something like a year after he finnished school. He really did not intend to overstay his visa and I really new nothing about his situation. Aparantly he meant to apply for a work visa during that year but he ended up in the boonies in Idaho with not much in the way of civil servants. He simply kept putting things off and pretty much forgot about it.

Well off he went in handcuffs to jail in Boise. It was our slow season at the time and it was just him and me and the receptionist. And she didn't fly. I was in deep do do. It was slow but I still had customer obligations. I kept in touch with the feds and they had a plan for what I could do but it was clear to me that these idiots never saw a mexican in Idaho before and they really needed to make a bust. They were just bored out of their minds. Hell they drove two hundred miles to collar Nato.

Anyway, without going into details we finally worked everything out and Nato got his work visa and green card. But it took about two months and in the meantime I was all but out of business. Sorry for the length of this Joe but it's one of those trying ordeals that you sit back and laugh at now but at the time, in my late twenties, just out of the army with a wife and two youngsters I was really having a hard time of it. All's well that ends well but as you can see there are many points of view on this issue.

[goodwitchofthesouth]

Originally Posted by Leeguana

I thought most of them came here to get better wages, create a better life for themselves and their families, etc.

Let me know if I'm misinterpreting you again, but you seem to be saying (actually, you DID say it) "they are intent on planting here, language, the common practice of drinking till drunk, driving drunk, a level of violence that is higher than average in this country."

So you mean we're being taken over by non-english speaking, drunk driving, violent Mexicans? That's pretty scary, I think I better emigrate to Canada. :confused:

Have you missed the statements of La Raza.....ever heard of Reconquista??
Were those demonstrators swarming the streets with Mexican flags just
people looking for work???? They have stated their intent and I believe
them! It is a fact that booze is a favorite passtime of the culture. This
is not racist, bigotted or anything but the truth. Add that to the packing
20 people into a vehicle and I fear for my life, my familys and friends.
Are you not aware of the murders of women on the border towns, the
drug runners??? TN was a hotbed of meth until a couple of years ago
when they put the cold meds behind the counter and started keeping up
with who got how much....cut the meth labs WAY down here. But, guess
who is bringing in meth on a grand scale???? Must be those family people
looking for work.
:p :D :rolleyes:

[goodwitchofthesouth]

Originally Posted by bogie

We've already established that you and joe disagree with me about this "danger". I would think we could move on.
That could be. I always wished that I too could predict the future. :)

It takes no special abilities to see what is before my nose and hear what they
are saying. Ten years from now I would bet you will feel much differently
about the situation when we are only a state of the No. American Union.

[Leeguana]

Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth

Have you missed the statements of La Raza.....ever heard of Reconquista??
Were those demonstrators swarming the streets with Mexican flags just
people looking for work???? They have stated their intent and I believe
them! It is a fact that booze is a favorite passtime of the culture. This
is not racist, bigotted or anything but the truth. Add that to the packing
20 people into a vehicle and I fear for my life, my familys and friends.
Are you not aware of the murders of women on the border towns, the
drug runners??? TN was a hotbed of meth until a couple of years ago
when they put the cold meds behind the counter and started keeping up
with who got how much....cut the meth labs WAY down here. But, guess
who is bringing in meth on a grand scale???? Must be those family people
looking for work. :p :D :rolleyes:

It most likely isn't "those family people looking for work". By everyone's admission, there are huge numbers of illegals crossing the border daily. There are bad apples in EVERY group of people. Even whitey's.

[bogie]

Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth

Ten years from now I would bet you will feel much differently
about the situation when we are only a state of the No. American Union.

Very well could be. I like the idea of eliminating borders. Canada, america and mexico all one nation. What is it that you don't like about the idea? Arizona, new mexico, california texas, etc. All of it use to be part of mexico. Between canada and mexico added to our own we'd have huge oil reserves. Having a hard time not liking your prediction. Wonder if we can shorten that ten years you talk about. :)

[goodwitchofthesouth]

Well, bogie, I like our constitution, our way of life, our language and being
American. We stand a far greater chance of doing worse than doing better
with the inclusive future of the New World Order of which the No. Amer. Un.
is a sampling. Oil or no oil, it not will be the middle class that benefits and
the corrupt government of Mexico will not clean up its act in order to "blend".
CAFTA and NAFTA has done nothing to improve things for anyone but big
business and whoever has the oil will continue to do whatever they want to
do regardless what anyone else thinks or "agrees" too.
Time will tell bogie.

[bogie]

Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth

Well, bogie, I like our constitution, our way of life, our language and being
American.

Me too. We have the best constitution and best governent in the world. Why not include canada and mexico and they could also teach us some french and spanish? In the mid fifties we included Alaska and Hawaii and we and the people of those states are doing nicely.

We stand a far greater chance of doing worse than doing better
with the inclusive future of the New World Order of which the No. Amer. Un.
is a sampling.

I've no reason to believe we'd be worse off. Just what makes you think that? But when you answer, forget about the next ten years. Imagine for the sake of argument it happened tomorrow. Not going to happen obviously but I can think of so many benifitting and the present citizenship not being any worse off.

Oil or no oil, it not will be the middle class that benefits and
the corrupt government of Mexico will not clean up its act in order to "blend".

Well, I'm middle class and I see the potential benifit for everybody. Moreover, the corrupt mexican government would no longer exist. What is there not to like about that? And I fail to see who would benifit more than the middle class if we were so much less dependent on foreign oil. A rising tide lifts all boats.

CAFTA and NAFTA has done nothing to improve things for anyone but big
business

And who works for big business and how much does big business contribute in taxes? I'm banking my retirement on big business through my 401k and IRA. For every story such as enron there are ten such as microsoft. Microsoft janitors have retired in their forties as millionairs due to their stock options. You seem to have a very narrow view of "big business".

and whoever has the oil will continue to do whatever they want to
do regardless what anyone else thinks or "agrees" too.

Of course but WE WOULD HAVE THE OIL.

Time will tell bogie.

Yes. But you seem to have the future already predicted.

[Joe Sixpack]

Anyway, without going into details we finally worked everything out and Nato got his work visa and green card. But it took about two months and in the meantime I was all but out of business. Sorry for the length of this Joe but it's one of those trying ordeals that you sit back and laugh at now but at the time, in my late twenties, just out of the army with a wife and two youngsters I was really having a hard time of it. All's well that ends well but as you can see there are many points of view on this issue.

I understand your compassion and your concern for your own family. You probably were not paying him less than he could afford to live on either, so you could take the highest margin of profit, at someone else’s expense?? Or were you paying him just below the level so he could draw a check from the government, draw food stamps and qualify for free medical, were you?

Yep. But again. There is no practical way to enforce that.

Say's you?? (sarcasm) The government does unpractical things to enforce laws that shouldn't be on the books, all the time?? Companies who are knowingly and willingly hiring illegals, are the one’s responsible for this situation. Looks like the government needs to start using some of those confiscation laws, for the legal purpose of recouping the money they and the tax payers are losing in entitlements, to support the illegal work forces these companies benefit from. See how long it takes to get this under control.

You have an illegal housekeeper you lose your house, period! If you cannot afford a housekeeper then you need to clean your own house? That’s what most folks who cannot afford help do?? Same with landscaping, janitorial, pool maintenance or any other home service. You own a business or hire a business who hires illegals, you lose your business, but don’t fret & look on the bright side, you can buy it back at the auction, at the end of the month, if you have mind too? Unfortunately on your second offence you will no longer be able to hold a business license, or vote for that matter, once you get out of a maximum federal prison sentence! If you cannot afford to pay a decent wage then you probably do not need to be in that business. You should allow the free market and capitalism to work properly, the way it is supposed too, and someone with some incentive will fill the void if there is a market for the item or service.

Most companies will not make the record breaking profits they have grown accustomed too, by cheating employees out of a livable wage, but hey, competition & the free enterprise system will be reborn again, and workers will have the leverage they need to obtain a realistic wage comparable to the cost of living in America. ;)

[goodwitchofthesouth]

Bogie, Im sure youve seen this scenario before but it is so simple and right on!
Would you feel so tolerant if a bunch of illegals decided your house was so
much better for them, so much better than anything that they ever had before
so that made it ok for them to move into your house?? With all their extended
families?? OF course, you would need to feed them, clothe them, put up with
their drunkeness, gangs, crime and 50 living in your house and of course pay
for all their medical care and give them your SS checks when it came time.
How would you feel about that??

Well, our country is OUR house and they are uninvited invading houseguests.
So there. Same thing exactly. :p

[Jreed]

I have a solution.

Let's build a huge wall (similar to the great wall of China) a mile inside our border. This 1 mile "no mans land" will be similar to the east berlin border. Mines, dogs, barbed wire, men with guns.

All moving objects in this target area will be shot in the legs. No kill shots allowed. Any officer killing on one shot will be fined $10.00. All injured and dead will remain as a warning to others who may try to follow. Darwinism at it's finest.

We could even use this area as a military training site. Bombing runs in the middle of the night. Secret weapons testing, napalm to help with the smell. All that good stuff.

There is nothing quite like the thought a slow and painful death, to deter people from doing something we don't want them to do. :eek:

I think the only thing that could make this work better is if we had a bunch of illegals build the wall, fences, and lay the mines. Then we could skin them and hang them on a wooden pole like a scare crow in no-mans land. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. :rolleyes:


Of course if that doesn't work we could just annex Mexico. They would make a pretty big state with a lot of voting *****, but then we wouldn't have to worry about illegals. They'd be citizens. :D

[goodwitchofthesouth]

Originally Posted by bogie

Me too. We have the best constitution and best governent in the world. Why not include canada and mexico and they could also teach us some french and spanish? In the mid fifties we included Alaska and Hawaii and we and the people of those states are doing nicely. I've no reason to believe we'd be worse off. Just what makes you think that? But when you answer, forget about the next ten years. Imagine for the sake of argument it happened tomorrow. Not going to happen obviously but I can think of so many benifitting and the present citizenship not being any worse off.Well, I'm middle class and I see the potential benifit for everybody. Moreover, the corrupt mexican government would no longer exist. What is there not to like about that? And I fail to see who would benifit more than the middle class if we were so much less dependent on foreign oil. A rising tide lifts all boats.And who works for big business and how much does big business contribute in taxes? I'm banking my retirement on big business through my 401k and IRA. For every story such as enron there are ten such as microsoft. Microsoft janitors have retired in their forties as millionairs due to their stock options. You seem to have a very narrow view of "big business".Of course but WE WOULD HAVE THE OIL.Yes. But you seem to have the future already predicted.

The handwriting is on the wall, bogie, read it and weep.

My daughter and I took my grandson out to eat for his birthday yesterdy at
a Cheddars. By the time we were ready to leave I approached the manager
and asked her if they had ANY Americans working in the kitchen??? She
was shocked for a minute and had to admit "no". All of the seven I saw
looked like wonderful candidates for all the 3rd world ills we are seeing
cropping up around us. Needless to say, we will never eat at that restaraunt
ever again.

How do you account for the huge rise in leprosy, drug resistant T.B., the
epidemic of bed bugs in this nation, the food contamination of fresh produce
from California, etc???? This use to hardly ever happen. Third world hygiene
practices and diseases are being imported into this country along with all these fine honest people breaking our laws.

Again, I would suggest you open your home to some and help them along. :p

[Joe Sixpack]

Of course if that doesn't work we could just annex Mexico.

So that's two for moving the border further south, for the sake of having/keeping cheap labor? Doesn't fix anything though only compounds the situation?

[Joe Sixpack]

the food contamination of fresh produce
from California, etc???? This use to hardly ever happen.

That's because the majority of our food supply came from all over the country and was not isolated to California, not to mention the food coming from Mexico grown is raw sewage??? The reason for the pet food problem, are because our pets food supply now comes from China. Obviously the molded and contaminated wheat and grains they don't want to eat for themselves??

[Jreed]

Actually this may solve multiple problems. Not only would we have the cheap laborers. (We'll ignore minimum wage laws for our new citizens)...

Lady Mod posted an article a while back saying the middle class was disappearing. Well, if we annex all the poor mexicans...we'd have a much larger poor population. Statistically speaking many of the poor people would then be "bumped" up a notch, into the middle class.

PLUS...since we all know the poor join the military...we'd have a huge new additon to our military hopefuls. Just think....we could bring the draft back and draft all the Mexicans and send them over to Iraq!! The influx of troops would have no trouble killing every man, woman, and child terrorist. And then....we could leave them all there!!!!!

I should run for office. These top notch problem solving skills are just going to waste on this board.

Just wait...I solved another problem......
When I want to go on a nice vacation to Playa Del Carmen for a couple weeks...I won't need a passport any more. That will save a lot of time in customs. Whew!!

I'm the new Problem Solver Czar.

[Odear]

[quote=wazzaa]Would you be happy to see the starve and die in the streets?

God damm I didnt know they could go to school, whats next letting them read? what use are slaves that can read I ask you.

We were here first!!! oh wait thats not true, but screw them right?


Tell that to my friend who's 70 year old aunt was hit and killed by an illegal alien in a police station parking lot in broad daylight. No license, of course. Hit and run. A couple of eyewitnesses were able to chase her (the illegal) down and stop her. This kind of thing happens all over the country every day, not including the choas caused by MS gangs, thugs and drug runners.

Of course, you would probably respond with something like: well, she's already old and shouldn't have been in the way.

By the way, regarding "cheap labor," illegal fruit pickers down south average $15 an hour. Some in the construction trade get $20/hr. Many end up with their own businesses, becoming their former employers' competition.

[Joe Sixpack]

By the way, regarding "cheap labor," illegal fruit pickers down south average $15 an hour. Some in the construction trade get $20/hr. Many end up with their own businesses, becoming their former employers' competition.

I have heard this fantastic story before but I've never seen a check stub that reflected any such thing? When you go out to the fields and ask around, they are just as interested in those jobs as well?? Just because an industrial farm offers higher wages for a few days because they have fallen behind schedule and need a field stripped, doesn't mean that person makes $15 an hour for every hour full time annually? Agriculture is seasonal/migratory as well!

The few that can create their own companies are few and far between, and are providing illegal slave labor, to get the jobs as well!! It isn't impossible but it isn't the norm either??

[bogie]

Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack

I understand your compassion and your concern for your own family. You probably were not paying him less than he could afford to live on either, so you could take the highest margin of profit, at someone else’s expense?? Or were you paying him just below the level so he could draw a check from the government, draw food stamps and qualify for free medical, were you?

I paid Nato what I could pay Nato. He literally helped me build the business into a success and after a couple of years I could have easily fired him and hired a pilot at a lower wage. If I could find one that would move up there that is. No, Nato got a fair wage from the start and during the slow times I often paid him without bringing anything home for myself. Nato is now a US citizen, married, with kids of his own and contributing mightely to this country.

Say's you?? (sarcasm) The government does unpractical things to enforce laws that shouldn't be on the books, all the time?? Companies who are knowingly and willingly hiring illegals, are the one’s responsible for this situation. Looks like the government needs to start using some of those confiscation laws, for the legal purpose of recouping the money they and the tax payers are losing in entitlements, to support the illegal work forces these companies benefit from. See how long it takes to get this under control.

Much of my point about the government not being able to enforce the law is directly attributable to what you point out. This government is so large and already so engrained in our lives that they cannot do what we want them to do for us. One hand has no idea what the other is doing. To just say that we must enforce the laws that we have on immigration or anything else is giving this beurocracy more credit for it's effectiveness than I do.

You have an illegal housekeeper you lose your house, period! If you cannot afford a housekeeper then you need to clean your own house? That’s what most folks who cannot afford help do?? Same with landscaping, janitorial, pool maintenance or any other home service. You own a business or hire a business who hires illegals, you lose your business, but don’t fret & look on the bright side, you can buy it back at the auction, at the end of the month, if you have mind too? Unfortunately on your second offence you will no longer be able to hold a business license, or vote for that matter, once you get out of a maximum federal prison sentence!

I guess we first need to rewrite the constitution then.

If you cannot afford to pay a decent wage then you probably do not need to be in that business.

Agreed.

You should allow the free market and capitalism to work properly, the way it is supposed too, and someone with some incentive will fill the void if there is a market for the item or service.

Yep. Love a free market.

Most companies will not make the record breaking profits they have grown accustomed too, by cheating employees out of a livable wage, but hey, competition & the free enterprise system will be reborn again, and workers will have the leverage they need to obtain a realistic wage comparable to the cost of living in America. ;)

Actually I think most companies would make even more record breaking profits the more free the marketplace. And I think more workers will be paid a realistic wage compared to the cost of living in america the more free the marketplace.

[bogie]

Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth

Bogie, Im sure youve seen this scenario before but it is so simple and right on!
Would you feel so tolerant if a bunch of illegals decided your house was so
much better for them, so much better than anything that they ever had before
so that made it ok for them to move into your house?? With all their extended
families?? OF course, you would need to feed them, clothe them, put up with
their drunkeness, gangs, crime and 50 living in your house and of course pay
for all their medical care and give them your SS checks when it came time.
How would you feel about that??

Well, our country is OUR house and they are uninvited invading houseguests.
So there. Same thing exactly. :p

Once and for all GW. I agree with you that illegal immigration is a huge problem. What I cannot seem to help you to understand is that the problem is more vast and it's causes more widespread than you are narrowly stating here. For whatever reason, you refuse to contemplate all sides of this problem. Your scenario in the above analogy is silly bordering on rediculous. Of course it's not OK for them to move into my house. Just what is it about my statement, "Illegal immigration in this country is a huge problem" that you find so difficult to understand?

[bogie]

Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth

The handwriting is on the wall, bogie, read it and weep.

My daughter and I took my grandson out to eat for his birthday yesterdy at
a Cheddars. By the time we were ready to leave I approached the manager
and asked her if they had ANY Americans working in the kitchen??? She
was shocked for a minute and had to admit "no". All of the seven I saw
looked like wonderful candidates for all the 3rd world ills we are seeing
cropping up around us. Needless to say, we will never eat at that restaraunt
ever again.

Are you saying they were not americans or that they didn't look like you? This reminds me of my ex wife and I sitting in the stands at my daughter's high school graduation. The valadictorian was of asian desent, the class president hispanic. I think the highest honors for math went to someone who's family originated in the middle east somewhere. Not one of the graduating students who spoke that day was caucasion. My wife leaned over and whispered to me, "Look at that. Not one american spoke." Turns out that everybody in my daughter's graduating class was a US citizen. One of the reasons for the demise of my first marriage I suppose.

How do you account for the huge rise in leprosy, drug resistant T.B., the
epidemic of bed bugs in this nation, the food contamination of fresh produce
from California, etc???? This use to hardly ever happen. Third world hygiene
practices and diseases are being imported into this country along with all these fine honest people breaking our laws.

Since I don't have any reason for believing that there has been a huge rise in any of those deseases in this country, I don't account for it at all.

Again, I would suggest you open your home to some and help them along. :p

And again, the suggestion is rediculous and demonstrates why this country cannot come together to find real solutions to the problem. Or are you enterested in real solutions more than throwing out such sill quips?

[bogie]

Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack

So that's two for moving the border further south, for the sake of having/keeping cheap labor? Doesn't fix anything though only compounds the situation?

Actually, the goodwitch got me to thinking about a united north america and it seems like a great idea to me. Statehood for mexico and canada. Sure worked great with alaska and hawaii. Think of the size of our oil reserves. If I'm not mistaken, we'd have the largest in the world. Let's do it. :D

[goodwitchofthesouth]

Originally Posted by bogie

Are you saying they were not americans or that they didn't look like you? This reminds me of my ex wife and I sitting in the stands at my daughter's high school graduation. The valadictorian was of asian desent, the class president hispanic. I think the highest honors for math went to someone who's family originated in the middle east somewhere. Not one of the graduating students who spoke that day was caucasion. My wife leaned over and whispered to me, "Look at that. Not one american spoke." Turns out that everybody in my daughter's graduating class was a US citizen. One of the reasons for the demise of my first marriage I suppose.

Since I don't have any reason for believing that there has been a huge rise in any of those deseases in this country, I don't account for it at all.

And again, the suggestion is rediculous and demonstrates why this country cannot come together to find real solutions to the problem. Or are you enterested in real solutions more than throwing out such sill quips?

Bogie, feel free to continue to hide your head in the sand. Im concerned for
the future of my country and my familys future.
The stats for the diseases are available but when someone refuses to believe
anything for whatever reason, then why bother with the numbers??
Our country will not be improved by being the Great Sugar Daddy to any and
all third world countries.
Some things are true even if you dont want to believe them. Its called
denial.

[bogie]

Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack

That's because the majority of our food supply came from all over the country and was not isolated to California, not to mention the food coming from Mexico grown is raw sewage??? The reason for the pet food problem, are because our pets food supply now comes from China. Obviously the molded and contaminated wheat and grains they don't want to eat for themselves??

Actually that's an oversimplification I believe. I have read that the wheat glutin, contaminated with mellinin is the cause and that did come from china. Many dog foods, the one my dogs get, do not contain wheat glutin so there is no risk. One direction that the investigation is taking is the possibility that the chemical was put into the wheat glutin to make it appear to contain more protein so they could charge more. But we'll just have to wait and see what developes.

[bogie]

Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth

Bogie, feel free to continue to hide your head in the sand. Im concerned for
the future of my country and my familys future.
The stats for the diseases are available but when someone refuses to believe
anything for whatever reason, then why bother with the numbers??
Our country will not be improved by being the Great Sugar Daddy to any and
all third world countries.
Some things are true even if you dont want to believe them. Its called
denial.

GW why is it so difficult for you to discuss an issue without using quips like "hide your head in the sand" and "sugar daddy?" Can you not communicate your point and expect that someone might not wholeheartedly agree with everything? Your "let them move into your house, bogie" and this crap is not lending to the credibility of what you have to say. Or do you just enjoy throwing such around when your real argument begins to unravel?

[Joe Sixpack]

I guess we first need to rewrite the constitution then.

We didn't require a change in the constitution to go after organized crime and drug dealers (or anyone who might have too much on hand), to mandate confiscation laws and mandatory maximums?? Why should we have to for this criminal act??

Actually that's an oversimplification I believe. I have read that the wheat glutin, contaminated with mellinin is the cause and that did come from china. Many dog foods, the one my dogs get, do not contain wheat glutin so there is no risk. One direction that the investigation is taking is the possibility that the chemical was put into the wheat glutin to make it appear to contain more protein so they could charge more. But we'll just have to wait and see what developes.

But it clearly shows that we no longer have a control over the products that are being grown and made for our consumption, or our pets for that matter.

I also have a theory that foods that are grown in your local area help provide our bodies with the necessary protection we need to strengthen our immune systems, and help protect us from allergies. Much in the same way that honey that is made in your local area has shown to help combat seasonal allergies. Also by having a wider range of areas that grow food it would be much harder to devastate our food supply, in case of a natural or man-made disaster.

I don't know how true it is but I read the other day that the tainted spinach they were concerned with grown too close to where cattle are raised and their waste was mixing in with the soil contaminating the food? Seems reasonable, since well maintained sewage systems has made an impact on our own life expectancy.

[bogie]

Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack

We didn't require a change in the constitution to go after organized crime and drug dealers (or anyone who might have too much on hand), to mandate confiscation laws and mandatory maximums?? Why should we have to for this criminal act??

You wouldn't have to rewrite it to go after employers. The rewrite would be required in order to allow these tactics that you suggested:

You have an illegal housekeeper you lose your house, period!
You own a business or hire a business who hires illegals, you lose your business, but don’t fret & look on the bright side, you can buy it back at the auction, at the end of the month, if you have mind too?
Unfortunately on your second offence you will no longer be able to hold a business license,
or vote for that matter,
once you get out of a maximum federal prison sentence!

I also have a theory that foods that are grown in your local area help provide our bodies with the necessary protection we need to strengthen our immune systems, and help protect us from allergies. Much in the same way that honey that is made in your local area has shown to help combat seasonal allergies.

Interesting theory. On what do you base it?

[Joe Sixpack]

You have an illegal housekeeper you lose your house, period!
You own a business or hire a business who hires illegals, you lose your business, but don’t fret & look on the bright side, you can buy it back at the auction, at the end of the month, if you have mind too?
Unfortunately on your second offence you will no longer be able to hold a business license,
or vote for that matter,
once you get out of a maximum federal prison sentence!

I don't know, but I can't believe human slavery, and aiding and abetting a federal fugitive isn't included in the organized crime category then I guess??

Interesting theory. On what do you base it?

Well like I mentioned the honey, and how it helps. I'm sure most folks would say; it's just one of them old wives tales, but it does help for seasonal allergies, I've seen it work! Your absorbing more of your environment, the soil, the air, the *****, and the plants. It's just another angle on the, "if it don't kill ya it makes you stronger" concept?

You want to keep flies off your porch, hang some clear plastic ziplocks bags 3/4 filled with *****, from the edge of the roof every 6' where the sun will hit it. You won't have any flies? It's an old Mexican trick. It's simple, it works, it's natural, and it's plentiful? Can't under stand why it's not common knowledge??

[scambuster]

Let me reiterate:

Originally Posted by scambuster

Border Patrol. Machine guns. I rest my case.

I think a policy of isolationism would work just fine.

Mexico, China, etal. have no regulations whatsoever. We do. That's what makes us a civilized first world country.
We don't need their stuff and we don't want it.

[bogie]

Originally Posted by scambuster

Let me reiterate:
I think a policy of isolationism would work just fine.

Mexico, China, etal. have no regulations whatsoever. We do. That's what makes us a civilized first world country.
We don't need their stuff and we don't want it.

Hundreds of millions of US consumers would dissagree on the "don't want it" part of your statement. And we "don't need" mexico's oil if you don't mind about six dollars a gallon gas.

[Jreed]

So you don't want isolationism, you don't want to annex them.

What's your suggestion?

I still like the idea of a big wall and lots of guns.
I know Mexico doesn't like the idea of an armed border...but what are they going to do about it?

[bogie]

Originally Posted by Jreed

So you don't want isolationism, you don't want to annex them.

Annex who? China and Mexico? I thought you were for isoationism.

What's your suggestion?

My first suggestion is to stop all of this rhetoric about walls and laws and armed borders and take a look at the ENTIRE problem. We all agree on the problem but these kinds of suggestions will get us nowhere towards solving anything. There is no single silver bullet.

I still like the idea of a big wall and lots of guns.
I know Mexico doesn't like the idea of an armed border...but what are they going to do about it?

I rest my case.

[Jreed]

I'm not necessarily for isolationism...my whole East German border as more of a joke.

Here is the real problem. We don't have the authority or ability to fix the mexican mindset of "America is the better way." The root cause of this problem is Mexico being a crappy place to live and work. That's why people leave...they are looking for a better way. Which they find here in the US.

We can't force the Mexican government to create a better life for it's people.
So fixing the actual cause is out of our control. That really limits our options.

To solve this we could could actually join with Mexico. They could become an actual state with all of the rights a state has. In the short term this would be expensive and painful....change always is. They have a big enough population....we could potentially have a Mexican President. But with the latino population rapidly on the rise in the US...this will happen anyway.

In the long term we would gain laborers willing to do the work many American are not. We would gain natural resources, and over time Mexico would be built up to acceptable levels. Workers would earn minimum wage or get educated. It isn't a perfect or ideal situation...but the way things are isn't acceptable either. In fact things suck right now.

If that doesn't float your boat we are left with preventing new illegals from crossing the border. (Walls and guns). And then as we find illegals here we deport them immediately and without question. No appeals, no nothing. This doesn't have to be a long expensive process. If an illegal is arrested, reported, found, pulled over speeding, etc....drag them kicking and screaming to a deportation office. Every day a truck leaves for the border and drops them off. In the short term this will create a lot of jobs. (Deportation officers, wall builders, etc.) But once we stop the flow of Mexicans into the US, we won't need as many deportation officers.

We are moving closer and closer to a global economy anyway...if you take a long-term view of things joining Mexico, Canada, and the US makes sense from an economics standpoint. As China starts sucking more and more resources it may become necessary sooner than we might think.

Perhaps you have posted a potential solution...but I haven't seen it. If you have please let me know the post # so I can read it.
If you haven't...well, poking holes in others ideas is always easier than coming up with an idea yourself.

Either way, in the long term, the US and Mexico will become one country. It's just a matter of time.

[Joe Sixpack]

Enforcing the law will not work?? Then we might as well pitch it in, we have lost! Time to get my Mad Max costume together!!

I think you are too content with the situation and have more to lose from having them under some type of control than if we solve the problem. Sorry but you can't please everybody? You have to go with what is best for the country as a whole, not with the best pension plans for the upper elite??

Short story by Joe, based on true story and events;

I went to the end of a railroad track and there was nothing there? But there was, at one time there was a town and a very successful coal mine. In the late 1800's, a rich elite came from back east and after realizing it's potential for coal, so he got the government to allow him the claimed to the area hneeded, and started an operation.

He convinced the government to build a train station and add the additional line ta was needed, all in his name and opened shop. His business brought in families from everywhere, and those families made claims and set up homesteads of their own. Before long the area was booming. The business mogul made all his money back of his original investment, in a very short time, had control of all the stores and the train station as well, in fact just about anything or everything a person would do profited the mogul.

Within a few years the families were growing crops and had been making a better go of it on their land with everybody pitching in while pop was off to the mines. Then folks started noticing the prices getting higher and the meals at the mine costing more, and the bunks at the mine reaching the point that after even making $1 a day 6 days a week 12-14 hours a day, at the end of the month, the workers would wind up owing the mine for the privilege of working for them? By the end of the year folks were into the company an average of 2-3 weeks pay? After a few more months of trying to negotiate with the owner to get the pay up so they were able to have a little money left over, folks started getting frustrated and disillusioned by the high pay with little to show for it at the end of the month?? The heads of families who had farms started leaving the mine first, then the other workers actually started working for the farms and quitting the mine too.

The mine owner refused to be bullied (as he called it) and felt that the workers were taking advantage of him and his generosity (???), but he would not waver, and he certainly wasn't going to share his fortune with a bunch of unworthy, uneducated, peasants. After all it was his money they were trying to take away from him!!

As others heard of the jobs that were there for the taking, he obtained more workers, mainly drifters who were not set on staying just trying to earn a stake so they could move on. But as soon as they realized the operation was designed to relieve you of your hard earned cash, they too went on to a prospect of greener pasture down the road. The miner was now having a harder time getting help and the help he got were robbing him blind, and usually leaving him indebted to his stores and businesses. Too bad they didn't have government checks and food stamps, back then or this mine would have been a fortune 500 club member??

The locals were sure that the miner would see things their way, and raise their pay so they could all benefit from the money the mine made and brought in, but they were wrong. They were not taking into consideration that this fella's family was loaded. he also had obtained several cattle ranches, and owned city blocks in major cities, and even if he shut down the mine tomorrow, he would lose nothing. They had no leverage in the situation to demand anything. So that is exactly what he did. He just simply closed the mine and all the doors on all his businesses, including the train station, and his personal rail line.

Ya see the rich urchin made a decision to close shop and find another toy to play with someplace else, since he couldn't have his way there anymore.

Well the farmers were not concerned in the least they had grown so much that they could grow without the miner and /or his money. They would not be his slaves for his profit?? Unfortunately they hadn't anticipated the effects on them when the train station was no longer available to get their products to market, and they were dead in the *****.

They tried everything even buying him out, but the mogul was hard pressed that if he couldn't own it and prosper from it "nobody" would! The rich guys corporations continued to prosper, and the land and all it's assets were frozen, and the town died as fast as it was created.

Today it is still owned by his descendents and they are under strict orders from his will to never sell or use the land for anything, and so the railroad track that are still present from over 100 years ago make up the railroad track to no where. Except for them nothing still remains visible.

And they all moved to the city and went to work for Wally World and got on welfare, and lived happily ever after, THE END!!

[Jreed]

Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack

Enforcing the law will not work?? Then we might as well pitch it in, we have lost! Time to get my Mad Max costume together!!

I think you are too content with the situation and have more to lose from having them under some type of control than if we solve the problem. Sorry but you can't please everybody? You have to go with what is best for the country as a whole, not with the best pension plans for the upper elite??

Short story by Joe, based on true story and events;

I went to the end of a railroad track and there was nothing there? But there was, at one time there was a town and a very successful coal mine. In the late 1800's, a rich elite came from back east and after realizing it's potential for coal, so he got the government to allow him the claimed to the area hneeded, and started an operation.

....................................

Perhaps I am just being dense...but what does this have to do with Mexico?

Would the US be the "rich urchin" in this case? :D

[bogie]

Originally Posted by Jreed

I'm not necessarily for isolationism...my whole East German border as more of a joke.

Here is the real problem. We don't have the authority or ability to fix the mexican mindset of "America is the better way." The root cause of this problem is Mexico being a crappy place to live and work. That's why people leave...they are looking for a better way. Which they find here in the US.

We can't force the Mexican government to create a better life for it's people.
So fixing the actual cause is out of our control. That really limits our options.

To solve this we could could actually join with Mexico. They could become an actual state with all of the rights a state has.

This indeed would solve the problem. I see a great deal of potential encluding canada as a state as well. We could be the united states of north america. The more the marrier when it comes to living under our constitution.

In the short term this would be expensive and painful....change always is. They have a big enough population....we could potentially have a Mexican President. But with the latino population rapidly on the rise in the US...this will happen anyway.

Not expensive at all when you through their oil in with ours. I could make the argument that it's more expensive, even in the short run not to make canada and mexico states. No mexican president though, a governor and state legislature like every other state. And what's wrong with a rising latino population? Or any ethnic group?

In the long term we would gain laborers willing to do the work many American are not.

But they would be americans.

We would gain natural resources, and over time Mexico would be built up to acceptable levels. Workers would earn minimum wage or get educated.

Just like US workers have always done. Study in school, earn great wages.

It isn't a perfect or ideal situation...but the way things are isn't acceptable either. In fact things suck right now.

Seems like the ideal solution to me. Who looses other than the foriegn oil producers that we now depend on.

If that doesn't float your boat we are left with preventing new illegals from crossing the border. (Walls and guns). And then as we find illegals here we deport them immediately and without question. No appeals, no nothing. This doesn't have to be a long expensive process. If an illegal is arrested, reported, found, pulled over speeding, etc....drag them kicking and screaming to a deportation office. Every day a truck leaves for the border and drops them off. In the short term this will create a lot of jobs. (Deportation officers, wall builders, etc.) But once we stop the flow of Mexicans into the US, we won't need as many deportation officers.

If I thought for a minute that any of this would work I'd agree with you. But I don't so I don't. You were seeing the overall problem better when you started with statehood.

We are moving closer and closer to a global economy anyway...if you take a long-term view of things joining Mexico, Canada, and the US makes sense from an economics standpoint. As China starts sucking more and more resources it may become necessary sooner than we might think.

I'm all over this one. Good answer.

Perhaps you have posted a potential solution...but I haven't seen it. If you have please let me know the post # so I can read it.
If you haven't...well, poking holes in others ideas is always easier than coming up with an idea yourself.

No better solution. It is easier to poke holes in most of the so called solutions that people think to be a silver bullet. Again you're much more on track by understanding that we live in a global economy, that this really is an economic problem and that there is an economic solution. Poking holes in armed borders and walls is a slam dunk.

Either way, in the long term, the US and Mexico will become one country. It's just a matter of time.

Here, here.

[Joe Sixpack]

Would the US be the "rich urchin" in this case?

Just a small percentage of the population is "rich urchins" who set the standards for the rest of the population, the majority to follow.

The story is about what happens when the free enterprise system is ran as a system based on greed.

Some folks would argue that Americans are already too educated for the jobs that are available and that we simply do not have enough jobs for the educated, and probably never will. 2-3 times as many eligible applicants apply for law and medical schools than there are positions to teach. That means over qualified people are being turned away. While the American corporations peddle the notion that uneducated people are not capable of holding technical positions in factories and/ or jobs requiring math and computer skills? Yet Ford and Chevy are taking Mexicans with as little as 2-3 years of formal education, and in 6 months turning them into technicians w/out any formal college education, just on the job training. They are also moving them from position to position every six months so they will have the technical experience to run any part of the factory that used to be ran in the U.S. by college educated (overpaid in the eyes of the corporations), and as they train another Mexican down south in Mexico for $1.25 a day, they can let another one go in the U.S.???

We cannot supply the jobs for the people we are educating now???

The illegals are not doing jobs that Americans "will" not do, they are doing and allowing corporations and private business with an abundance slave work force who will work for less than they can afford to live on, because they can depend on the government supplementing their income so they will/can stay, to keep companies from having to pay a realistic wage an American can live on.

A little over 30% of high school graduates, will attend and graduate college with a degree. Which means around 70% of the population entering the work force needs jobs they can live on?? I don't see how, even if it were possible, sending those 70% to college will help when around 20% of the college graduates we already have are working at below their education level now???

Interesting how some folks will rationalize the breakdown of our free enterprise system and our capitalistic society, for the benefit of the minority when it is hurting the majority of the population in the process???

Educating more folks is only going to bring this further to light??? I don't see how it helps your cause?