ACN - scam?

[jvaldez]

Let me try this from a 2nd grade level. Your first question was:

1) javaldez can you honestly say that this company acn isn't replacing peoples jobs?
A) Is this a question or a statement? I don’t care about this, this is a non issue. Once LD is free, ACN will start hustling light bulbs and start calling itself a ***** company.

Your second comment or question???

2) I think most of us are in it for a second form of income and or job replacement if that's not possible with acn let me know how.........

A) If you choose to sell manure for a second form of income, it is up to you. If you choose to play marbles for a living, it’s up to you. If you choose to sell ACN, it’s up to you.

Your last quote:

3) If you can prove what i said wrong ill quit today!
A) What is there for me to prove wrong??? As I said in a previous posting, if getting shot out of a cannon is your cup of tea, more ***** to you.

I hope this helps you.

[jvaldez]

Poncho – Fascinating Posting! Your comment on the HYPE is interesting. A great deal of what these MLMs do are driven by hype and little substance.

As far as I know in your neck of the woods, the state utility commission does not control contract price points for resellers of telco services. I have seen the state utility commissions get involved in customer care and price gouging issues. The seller of service really controls the price point for services. If the seller decides to increase its rates when the reseller contract expires, it could drive the reseller out of business. The margins for resellers are always razor thin. This means they are making a penny to a fraction of a penny of every called minute. This may not seem like a great deal but when you factor in 20 million minutes a month, it adds up. If a reseller receives a price increase from the supplier, it could be the end of the line for the reseller. In my 20 plus years in the business I’ve seen many resellers come and go.

Now that we discussed the resellers, let’s look at the MLM factor. These companies care about building networks period. Their financial model is driven by mass, nothing else. If they have critical mass ( each paying a 500 entrance fee ) adding new members a day, who cares about driving minutes on a network or customer service?

Now I am aware just about anybody can become a reseller. You factor in the MLM element and this equation gets dirty very fast. The MLM will stay in telco as long as they can squeak out a margin. When there is no more margin to be made, it’s adios amigos and on to noni juice.

Hope This Helps…

Originally Posted by Poncho

Jvaldez – Recently some friends and family have tried to intoxicate me with their ACN / MLM kool-aid. Thank God I found this thread. Not knowing anything about MLMs or ACN until I read this thread, I have truly found this site and your input very educational.

The “hype” presented from ACN reps (my family) is very believable and enticing. Judging by their expensive cars, heavy rings, and big house I’m thinking, WOW they must be doing something right, I’m thinking they have it all together. Something did not settle well with me though and deep down I have been struggling with maybe, this really is a once in a life time opportunity and maybe I am a real fool for not investing in this great opportunity. And maybe this is too good to be true. (I have very little sales resistant and so I usually avoid sales people like the plague. It is even difficult for me to hang up on telemarketers, although I despise their intrusion.)

Let me see if I got this right, This is what I have learned ACN is a reseller of utilities. They purchase the services from the utilitiy through a negotiated contract with the utilities company, like Qwest, at a wholesale price regulated by the UTC of Washington. ACN marks up the wholesale utility/service and resells it through a Multi Layer Marketing network (MLM). ACN boasts competitive rates and that they can sell you the phone service cheaper then Qwest. In order to do this they mark up on wholesale retail are very slim. In My opinion ACN is gambling that they can create enough hype and “opportunity” for people to continue to pay the $499 fee as this is where the real money is and not in the fraction of a cent mark up on the utilities.

It is not illegal to resell a utility in fact it has been going on for a long time, This is not a new concept and ACN did not invent this concept. You can visit Qwest’s website to see a list of resellers and how it works. http://www.qwest.com/wholesale/clecs/escalations.html
It is illegal for ACN to require an investment of $499 obtain the right to recruit others into the program and when the emphasis changes from selling phone services to building a network recruiting recruits that are recruiting other people to recruit people to sell the phone services. This is where I believe ACN is crossed that fine line between MLM’s and illegal Pyramids.

Did I get this right? I am practicing my argument for my next meeting with the my ACN friends and family.

[at1]

I am glad people like you two are around, there is nothing illegal about acn
in no way does the meeting lie everything said and shown on the vid isn't hype. I know someone personally thats done acn for 6 months and brings in about 20k a month you guys are just scared. If people pay 500 bucks and don't follow up with the company who fault is that? the company offers a second form of income thats all it promises... is it a pyriamid? yes so is ever job you'll ever work only diffrence is this one doesn't keep you down

[Poncho]

I Goggled ACN and I came across the Australian Competing and Consumer Commission’s website www.accc.gov.au. What I discovered was very disturbing to say the least. It does however solidify my view that ACN appears to be an illegal pyramid. The website states that,

“The ACCC alleged that ACN and Gibbshade ltd. Participated in, promoted and induced or attempted to induce persons to take part in a pyramid scheme in contravention of section 65AAC of the trace practices Act 1974, and that Mr. Paech, and CAN director, Mr. Janke, Mr. Gibbs and Ms. Schade were knowingly concerned in and/or aided and abetted those contraventions.

The focus of the ACCC’s proceedings is the ACN’s marketing system. Independent Representatives pay ACN $548 including (GST) and sell those services to consumers. Independent Representatives also have the right to recruit other Independent Representatives. Those Independent Representatives can receive commissions from their personal customers as well as commissions from customers of Independent Representatives they have recruited. In addition, Customer Acquisition Bonuses are paid on the number of qualified Independent representatives.”
The Federal Court Trial is scheduled in the week beginning February 21, 2005.
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index...fromItemId/142

Please follow the link to read this first hand.

I am unable to find out what the outcome of the trial was from a couple of weeks ago but would like to know if anybody has information? As far as I understand the government temporary shut them down.

I am related to the group that is in trouble in Australia. They came back in November and have started to push ACN here in our town in Washington. They appeared to have made lots of money and where very successful (if you measure success by obtaining lots of money). We never got a straight answer as to why they came back from the famed gold coast if life was so good over there. And have kept is quite that they are in litigation with the Australian Federal Government. I now know that the Australian Government temporarily have shut them down and in other words; they where tarred and feathered and ran out of the country.

This is very difficult for me because they are family and I love my family unconditionally; if they are stupid or not. However, It is difficult to sit or stand by and allow them to scam my friends and family and my church.

I feel hurt that they did not let me know what really happened and even more deceived now that I have found the truth on the internet. Why was this was so secretive and why didn’t they tell me the truth? I feel scammed by my own family. I was happy and angry that I found this information. Why would they want me to participate in something that is illegal? Why are they boosting there huge success in Australia when a judge may order to give all the money back plus interest?

Knowing very little about illegal Pyramid selling Schemes I started to research it. I quickly came to a MLM watchdog website that reported, “MLM ACN Australia Shortest Launch and Shut down in History” The gist of the report was to stay clear and ACN. They also reported about how ACN Canada was in trouble back in 2002 please read the link below first hand:

“The Competition Bureau alleges that ACN Canada, as it is known, and its participants, through its web sites and at public meetings, recruited new participants by exaggerating income expectations without disclosing the income of a typical participant. Under the Competition Act, it is illegal to make reference to earnings in a multi-level marketing plan without disclosing a typical participant's income. In addition, operators of a multi-level marketing plan must ensure that any income representation made by a participant in the plan includes disclosure of a typical participant's income.

Furthermore, ACN Canada was charged with operating an illegal scheme of pyramid selling by offering recruitment bonuses to participants who paid for the right to recruit other participants.” http://www.mlmwatchdog.com/Report_ACN.html

Again, I was astounded to find their names reported on a MLM watchdog list. Furthermore, a strong warning from the site to let buyer beware. As far as I can tell this MLM site is set up by MLM’er who are telling there industry to watch out for ACN.

From this discovery I have become very concerned about investment opportunity in ACN and what they are soliciting here in Washington. It is important that our friends and family be warned of the deceptive marking scheme. One of my family members has stated that they are in the process of closing their profitable business to chase this ACN Rainbow. They drank the Kool-Aid and now are running around town having ACN Kool-Aid parties. Yea it is tuff running a small business but the grass is not greener in ACN land. Or is it? (it is hard to argue this because of those who came back from Australia loaded with money. young and millionaires) It is very tempting to listen to they hype because it appears so successful. I do not like this though. I do not like to be lied to. PERIOD.

I have confronted them on the phone about the litigation in Australia, but have been po pooed that ACN Australia is still going strong and they have even set up ACN New Zealand. Not to worry they say ACN is legit don’t believe what a few people are saying on the internet, they say. As if they are saying look at us and all our money. you can have it too.

I don’t like it. I need facts. I have been ignoring the phone trying to build up a sales resistance and immunity to the ACN Kool-Aid. I don’t want to get hypnotized by greed and turn of my brain.

According to this site ACN Canada was determined an illegal pyramid. http://www.mlmwatchdog.com/Report_ACN.html
According to this site ACN Australia is being prosecuted by the federal government for being an illegal pyramid. http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index...fromItemId/142

Before this family member got involved with ACN in Australia they where very successful (lots of money) with the Trek Alliance in Oregon. This was another illegal Pyramid Scheme that was shut down by the FTC. http://www.rickross.com/reference/tr...lliance11.html

Why is the FTC allowing ACN to continue here in the USA? If I decided to complain, who do I complain to in the government to get this to stop?

My wife says just let it go and ignor it. Maybe she is right however it would be difficult to sit by and watch people buy into this. I am not for sure that ACN is illegal nor is it my job to determine this. I am not a lawyer. Maybe those that drink the ACN Koolaid can have a more simple life and make lots of money. Hey what is wrong with that? And maybe it is okay for people like April47 to get ahead in life and to make money this way. After all MLM and amway are here to stay. Who am I to try to interfer.

I just don't like to be lied to and I don't like to see my friends being lied too.

[jvaldez]

at1 - I could really go off here but I won’t. I do wish you the very best in what you choose in life. I will personally give you 1,000 USD ( US Dollars ) if you produce the factual data of a single individual who has been selling ACN for 6 months and is grossing 20,000 USD per month. Post the data here for all to see and once I verify it to be accurate, factual and true, you get 1,000 USD. The ball is in your court.

Originally Posted by at1

I am glad people like you two are around, there is nothing illegal about acn
in no way does the meeting lie everything said and shown on the vid isn't hype. I know someone personally thats done acn for 6 months and brings in about 20k a month you guys are just scared. If people pay 500 bucks and don't follow up with the company who fault is that? the company offers a second form of income thats all it promises... is it a pyriamid? yes so is ever job you'll ever work only diffrence is this one doesn't keep you down

[jvaldez]

This by far has been the most captivating posting to this board to date! You truly have done a fine job with research. I read volumes of data a week in my profession, your posting has forced me to add a couple of hours of week to my regiment.

I won’t respond to the statement about money and relatives. I interface with wealthy individuals daily and as such, it’s the quiet ones that fascinate me. The talkers, braggers and flashers are always compensating. I’ll leave it there and move on.

I recently spoke with a friend who works for BT in Sydney. His comments were spot on as it related to the MLM industry in Asia Pac. Being that Australia is so open, he said he could see an MLM coming in to sell service without much opposition. The fact that the MLM pitch is Hyped to the degree that anything will be said to grow the network and sell a customer, the regulatory community has taken notice. He said if you try this charade in 80% of the countries in Asia Pac, you could pay with your life. The fair trade practices are far more strict in Australia that the USA. All this being said - my former colleague said there will always be illegal telecom practices that thrive on bypassing taxes imposed by the host country. Having traveled the planet studying these practices I could start another thread but for now will stay on message.

The element that I view as Sick and Demented is these MLM companies have you prey on friends and family. My advice is simple:

- Never Talk Politics With A Client.
- Never Talk Religion With A Client
- Never Do Business With Friends and Family.

All fairly basic principles that once coupled with hard work, are some of the basic ingredients for success.

MLMs thrive in the USA as there is little to no oversight. Once a scam is uncovered and shut down, another scam begins. My recommendation for reporting the felonious actives is to call the following:

- Better Business Bureau
- The Federal Trade Commission
- The State Attorney General
- The FCC
- The Local TV Station
- The Local Politician Running For Re-Election

It may take time to run the snake oil salesman out of town but if you persist, they will be gone.

I personally have no bad feeling toward the MLM industry as it relates to telecom, I do however take issue with the bone head statements some of these clowns make to sell service.

The grass is never greener on the other side, it always needs cutting!!!

Please keep the postings coming!!!

Originally Posted by Poncho

I Goggled ACN and I came across the Australian Competing and Consumer Commission’s website www.accc.gov.au. What I discovered was very disturbing to say the least. It does however solidify my view that ACN appears to be an illegal pyramid. The website states that,

“The ACCC alleged that ACN and Gibbshade ltd. Participated in, promoted and induced or attempted to induce persons to take part in a pyramid scheme in contravention of section 65AAC of the trace practices Act 1974, and that Mr. Paech, and CAN director, Mr. Janke, Mr. Gibbs and Ms. Schade were knowingly concerned in and/or aided and abetted those contraventions.

The focus of the ACCC’s proceedings is the ACN’s marketing system. Independent Representatives pay ACN $548 including (GST) and sell those services to consumers. Independent Representatives also have the right to recruit other Independent Representatives. Those Independent Representatives can receive commissions from their personal customers as well as commissions from customers of Independent Representatives they have recruited. In addition, Customer Acquisition Bonuses are paid on the number of qualified Independent representatives.”
The Federal Court Trial is scheduled in the week beginning February 21, 2005.
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index...fromItemId/142

Please follow the link to read this first hand.

I am unable to find out what the outcome of the trial was from a couple of weeks ago but would like to know if anybody has information? As far as I understand the government temporary shut them down.

I am related to the group that is in trouble in Australia. They came back in November and have started to push ACN here in our town in Washington. They appeared to have made lots of money and where very successful (if you measure success by obtaining lots of money). We never got a straight answer as to why they came back from the famed gold coast if life was so good over there. And have kept is quite that they are in litigation with the Australian Federal Government. I now know that the Australian Government temporarily have shut them down and in other words; they where tarred and feathered and ran out of the country.

This is very difficult for me because they are family and I love my family unconditionally; if they are stupid or not. However, It is difficult to sit or stand by and allow them to scam my friends and family and my church.

I feel hurt that they did not let me know what really happened and even more deceived now that I have found the truth on the internet. Why was this was so secretive and why didn’t they tell me the truth? I feel scammed by my own family. I was happy and angry that I found this information. Why would they want me to participate in something that is illegal? Why are they boosting there huge success in Australia when a judge may order to give all the money back plus interest?

Knowing very little about illegal Pyramid selling Schemes I started to research it. I quickly came to a MLM watchdog website that reported, “MLM ACN Australia Shortest Launch and Shut down in History” The gist of the report was to stay clear and ACN. They also reported about how ACN Canada was in trouble back in 2002 please read the link below first hand:

“The Competition Bureau alleges that ACN Canada, as it is known, and its participants, through its web sites and at public meetings, recruited new participants by exaggerating income expectations without disclosing the income of a typical participant. Under the Competition Act, it is illegal to make reference to earnings in a multi-level marketing plan without disclosing a typical participant's income. In addition, operators of a multi-level marketing plan must ensure that any income representation made by a participant in the plan includes disclosure of a typical participant's income.

Furthermore, ACN Canada was charged with operating an illegal scheme of pyramid selling by offering recruitment bonuses to participants who paid for the right to recruit other participants.” http://www.mlmwatchdog.com/Report_ACN.html

Again, I was astounded to find their names reported on a MLM watchdog list. Furthermore, a strong warning from the site to let buyer beware. As far as I can tell this MLM site is set up by MLM’er who are telling there industry to watch out for ACN.

From this discovery I have become very concerned about investment opportunity in ACN and what they are soliciting here in Washington. It is important that our friends and family be warned of the deceptive marking scheme. One of my family members has stated that they are in the process of closing their profitable business to chase this ACN Rainbow. They drank the Kool-Aid and now are running around town having ACN Kool-Aid parties. Yea it is tuff running a small business but the grass is not greener in ACN land. Or is it? (it is hard to argue this because of those who came back from Australia loaded with money. young and millionaires) It is very tempting to listen to they hype because it appears so successful. I do not like this though. I do not like to be lied to. PERIOD.

I have confronted them on the phone about the litigation in Australia, but have been po pooed that ACN Australia is still going strong and they have even set up ACN New Zealand. Not to worry they say ACN is legit don’t believe what a few people are saying on the internet, they say. As if they are saying look at us and all our money. you can have it too.

I don’t like it. I need facts. I have been ignoring the phone trying to build up a sales resistance and immunity to the ACN Kool-Aid. I don’t want to get hypnotized by greed and turn of my brain.

According to this site ACN Canada was determined an illegal pyramid. http://www.mlmwatchdog.com/Report_ACN.html
According to this site ACN Australia is being prosecuted by the federal government for being an illegal pyramid. http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index...fromItemId/142

Before this family member got involved with ACN in Australia they where very successful (lots of money) with the Trek Alliance in Oregon. This was another illegal Pyramid Scheme that was shut down by the FTC. http://www.rickross.com/reference/tr...lliance11.html

Why is the FTC allowing ACN to continue here in the USA? If I decided to complain, who do I complain to in the government to get this to stop?

My wife says just let it go and ignor it. Maybe she is right however it would be difficult to sit by and watch people buy into this. I am not for sure that ACN is illegal nor is it my job to determine this. I am not a lawyer. Maybe those that drink the ACN Koolaid can have a more simple life and make lots of money. Hey what is wrong with that? And maybe it is okay for people like April47 to get ahead in life and to make money this way. After all MLM and amway are here to stay. Who am I to try to interfer.

I just don't like to be lied to and I don't like to see my friends being lied too.

[MlmFruitkake]

Poncho-
I was very upset when I read your post because of the narrow mind set and also false comments about ACN that you made. I completely understand not wanting to be lied to by family and friends, I was not even introduced into ACN by a family member or a friend so I can not competely understand where you are coming from, but I do know the facts about the company yes they are resellers and yes it does cost to be an idependant contractor for them but you don't pay $499 for being able to pass on the opportunity it is to have access to all the sercives you are not limited to just family and friends, you also have representative services and your customers can call customer service 24/7 and actually talk to a real person which is huge because my local carrier doesn't offer that or the fact that I can talk to my family and friends for free on my time schedule not theirs. Also as far as investing your $499 to start they have a promotion right now that if you sign up 20 services which can be 10 local/ld bundles then you receive your money back so for someone that doesn't have the money to invest but wants to take hold of the opportunity they can do that. Their are other companies that don't require a startup cost and most representatives if they have a bad day then they hang it up and don't give it a fair try but if you have to pay to start a business up then you take it more seriously. Like I said it is great to be cautious I prayed about joining ACN for a couple of days and I got the ok plus it is a great way for me to witness to people as I help their business to grow. Just take a step back and look at all the angles if is for you than you will no if not than that is fine and just tell your family that they can't push you into anything. :book:

[Poncho]

From a Business investment perspective

Putting aside the legality of charging new recruits $499 for the opportunity to recruit recruiters that pay $499 for their opportunity to recruit, putting this aside I would like to address how territories are or are not protected. It was explained to me that the $499 fee was a fair fee just as any other legal franchisor charges its franchisee.

You could compare this to the McDonalds Corporation Franchise. McDonald’s franchisees pay a fee to McDonalds Corporation in exchange they get nation wide advertising, product, systems, and name recognition. The McDonalds Franchisee then focuses all its ****** on reselling the food as fast and as efficient as possible to its customers. The focus is the customer. The new McDonalds Franchisee does not focus on trying to set up more franchisee. Moreover McDonalds Corporation protects its franchisees by not allowing new stores to be set up across the street and is certainly conscious of over saturating a certain market with too many McDonalds stores and dooming it’s franchisees unprofitable.

ACN’s goal is to get as many people possible to invest their $499 into their “franchise” This is where the real money is for the company. ACN is not conscious or protective of its representative’s investment, sales territory, or their possibility to be profitable.

If this takes off in Washington like my Austrualian friends say it will. And people buy into the hype my circle of friends and family will quickly be saturated with ACN representatives (it almost already is and it hasn't even really got started yet) so it will make it all the more difficult to sell to my friends and family the phone services (becuase they will already have been hit up a couple of times already) and more importantly it will be dificult to realize the successes promised by this once in a life time opportunity.

In order to be successful as an ACN representative I will need to be able to step outside of the “Warm market” (Friends and family) and tap into the “cold market” by means of Telemarketing or cold calling. Telemarketing and Cold calling is a dreadful job. Nobody in this town likes telemarketers and it becomes especially awkward when you begin telemarketing friends and family because they can’t just hang up on you or they can and you might loose a friend.

The other hurdle to overcome is this is not like selling shampoo or vitamins. This is telecommunication and can be incredibly complex.

“ACN markets utility services charged on an ongoing subscription and usage basis. This is both the beauty and the beast of the arrangement. Through reselling basic access and long-distance services, ongoing revenue streams for trailing commissions are more assured. However, it also makes selling the product that much harder. While it may be possible to leverage off personal relationships to convince a friend to try a new washing powder, the sale of 12 month fixed line or mobile contract may be more difficult”
http://www.ovum.com/go/content/c,50185

So let’s say I do really good and find enough customers and Recruits to make a living at so that I can quit my day job and do this full time. ACN’s idea is that you can just sit back and collect commissions. This sounds great however again if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. You should be aware that the actual business of sales and supervision is hard work. So if everyone is doing little or no work, how successful can a venture be?

Furthermore, it is difficult to know where the market will be in three years. The telecommunications market is changing rapidly and is extremely competitive. Thinking that if you build a customer base and that you have the mind set that it will just sit still for the next three years and that you collect a nice commission while you sit on your yacht and sip a margarita is a flawed line of thinking.

The phone companies are constantly looking for ways to be more competitive and they are in control of the price of the wholesaled phone service. Furthermore, bundling services for a discount is already offered by Qwest and is not a new idea for ACN. Qwest has a competitive advantage over ACN because they own the system and sell it to ACN which intern resells it through its MLM network.

[Poncho]

MlmFruitkake - I appologize for being Narrow minded. I haven't figured every thing out. Answer me this, What can ACN possibly offer as a reseller and be benifficial for our society that it doesn't already have? My Narrow mindedness stems from MLMers distorting the truth, defrauding, and deciving my friends and family.

Please be more specific about How I made "false comments about ACN".

My opion is largely formed by the goverments website who are stating that ACN is an Illegal Pryamid. I did not make this up.

As you can see from my last post I'm trying to figure out how I could make this work from a business investement prosective. I doesn't make good business sense to me.

Originally Posted by MlmFruitkake

Poncho-
I was very upset when I read your post because of the narrow mind set and also false comments about ACN that you made. I completely understand not wanting to be lied to by family and friends, I was not even introduced into ACN by a family member or a friend so I can not competely understand where you are coming from, but I do know the facts about the company yes they are resellers and yes it does cost to be an idependant contractor for them but you don't pay $499 for being able to pass on the opportunity it is to have access to all the sercives you are not limited to just family and friends, you also have representative services and your customers can call customer service 24/7 and actually talk to a real person which is huge because my local carrier doesn't offer that or the fact that I can talk to my family and friends for free on my time schedule not theirs. Also as far as investing your $499 to start they have a promotion right now that if you sign up 20 services which can be 10 local/ld bundles then you receive your money back so for someone that doesn't have the money to invest but wants to take hold of the opportunity they can do that. Their are other companies that don't require a startup cost and most representatives if they have a bad day then they hang it up and don't give it a fair try but if you have to pay to start a business up then you take it more seriously. Like I said it is great to be cautious I prayed about joining ACN for a couple of days and I got the ok plus it is a great way for me to witness to people as I help their business to grow. Just take a step back and look at all the angles if is for you than you will no if not than that is fine and just tell your family that they can't push you into anything. :book:

[jvaldez]

You can sign up for the US Armed Forces, get trained, die for your country, and it won’t cost you a penny. How many employers do you know that charge you for a title and/or make you pay to work? If Gregory Provenzano were such a visionary, he would adequately compensate those individuals that make him money.

[at1]

He does by letting you get you're investment back by just getting 20 customers, why foolish people sign up with out getting 20 customers i have no idea and if it was free people wouldn't take it seriously ill pay 500 knowing i can get it back

[April47]

Poncho,

I haven't read most of this thread since last time i posted, but i did happen to come across your post. You mentioned that you think ACN may be an illegal pyramid.. I would just like you to ask yourself these few questions....

Why would ACN be an illegal pyramid with 3 former state attorneys general on board? (who by the way used to SHUT DOWN companies that were running illegally)
Why would Fortune magazine put an illegal pyramid in their magazine TWICE?
Why would the BBB allow an illegal pyramid to be a member for the past 12 years?

you can do all the research you want... you will not find anything that Fortune and the BBB did not find... and if you do... you should tell them you want a job because i'm sure they'd hire you


everyone will have their likes and dislikes about ACN as well as any other MLM company... same with any business on this planet. Yes, in ACN we do recruit, but I know that is not what we FOCUS on, or at least my team doesn't. My team gets a few reps here and there, but I don't push anyone into doing anything they don't want to, and I make sure they know the truths, the ups and downs, before they get into this business... because to me $499 is a LOT of money, and I do not want anyone to feel that I conned them. If someone decides to pay the $499, they still have 10 days to get their money back if they decide it is not for them, OR they have 30 days to EARN their money back. Also, if someone pays the $499 and does not get any customers, you make nothing. How can anyone say that the focus is on reps when WE DO NOT GET PAID FOR NEW REPS IF NO CUSTOMERS ARE AQUIRED?

really... you all can think what you want.... but ACN works... I've seen it work for countless people, countless times... honestly we are not allowed to say exactly what people make... (this was told to us by bob stephan... and i am not going to against what he says.. cause frankly i'm not getting kicked out of the company over you people) but I can say that it has allowed my ex-boyfriend to buy his 213 acre farm and his dream house... a thing which he would've never been able to do working at his old job... it has allowed another one of my friends to buy his dream car... a BMW M3... and another one of my friends has a corvette... you can chose whether or not to believe all of this... i don't really care... i just know that i've SEEN it work... and i'm not going to just sit here and let people bash ACN.. and sway new or interested reps from going after their dreams....

The whole key is what YOU are WILLING to do.... if you don't want to work for it DON'T GET INTO ACN... but if you're willing to put some time and effort into it (more time if you want to achieve your goals FAST... and less time if you don't care if it takes you 10 years) then you WILL get where you want to go in this company... there is no doubt in my mind. So say what you want everyone... but you can't change my opinion... because i've PERSONALLY SEEN what this company does for people.... I just hope that none of you new or potential reps let all this overanalyzed crap sway you from achieving what you couldn't achieve under normal circumstances...

thanks for listening... (and don't bother responding jvaldez because i'm not going to argue with you)

April :)

[Rocksolid]

April

Good Post

Poncho

As I metioned before. tell your friends or family to back off. ACN does not need to the 'super seller' to work. One thing about any form of Commission selling is, it brings out the worse in human nature whether it is Cars, Real Estate, Insurance, or any industry. I can list many occassions to do with these industries when I have been lied to, or there has been unprofessional/unethical activity, but people still use these services

As jvaldez states, if a Sales employee lies to bring about a sale, and MLM Rep will not be around for long, if they do the same. Because the behaviour and manner of some Reps is 'over the top', it does not deminish ACN as a 'legit' company or stop others from behaving and representing ACN properly. ACN's Directors are very clear on that. If a Rep misbehaves, and it is brought to the companies attention, they risk termination.

In fact if anyone reading this forum has an issue with anything an ACN Rep has said to them, ring the Reps services number and complain. We need to weed out incorrect info getting out and the bad behaviour.

Australia

The ACCC which protects consumers over all industries in Australia has taken action to test whether the entry fee is legal or not. This is not the first time a country has tested this fee, when they first enter the market. ACN's entry fee is higher than some MLM's but they charge no monthly maintenance

The allegations of what one or 2 Reps have said are inacccurate. This will be clarified through the legal process. ACN is still operating in Australia, and has not been closed down. The ACCC does not have an issue with any other aspect of the company. New Rep joining fees are being held in Trust until this matter is resolved. It is business as usual in Australia

Entry fees
To clarify the fee issue. No Rep earns income from other Reps joining. You could have 1000 Reps join your team, and if they find no Customers you do not earn a cent. Many MLM's charge a fee and also charge a minimum monthly activity fee. ACN works out cheaper over a 12 month period, than many product MLM's. One is turning over more than $1 billion per year in sales
ACN only have an annual activity fee of $149.00

ACN

--$499.00 entry
--$000.00 monthly activity
--$499.00 first year

--$150.00 per year

Product company

--$250.00 entry
--$100.00 monthly activity x 12
$1,450.00 first year

$1200.00 per year

ACN actually charges less than other MLM's to be active. Actually 1/8th of many other MLM's. ACN Reps are not employees but self employed agents. Frankly ACN's charges are peanuts for participate in this income venture. Once again if you have an issue don't join. Put your money some where else.

[Poncho]

Rocksolid -

Thank you for your input. Have you heard anything from the proceedings from the Feb. 21, 2005 court in Australia? I am really curious if ACN is in the green or if the ACCC was successful in their prosecution of ACN’s alleged illegal Pyramid Schemes.

To address the $499. dollar investment I did some research to find out what makes an illegal Pyramid. Again, the question at hand “Is ACN legit?”

This is what Jeffrey A. Babener, a partner in the Portland, Oregon, law firm Babener & Associates, that represents many of the leading direct selling companies in the United States and abroad has to say about “Identifying Illegal Pyramid Schemes”

He says that if you are in a Pyramid “YOU ARE A CROOK”.

These are harsh words coming from an MLM expert lawyer so I think that all ACN’s independent reps should seek the truth about their company and beware of the deception that exists in a pyramid type company. They cannot exist unless they have you decived, hence, the Kool-Aid.

The Oregon Attorney goes on to list ways to identify red flags that may cause law enforcement agencies to investigate a business:

“Programs that require substantial initial cash investments . According to Babener, many states consider a required up-front investment of $500 or more to be "substantial" and thus likely to attract the attention of law enforcement.”
http://www.mlmstartup.com/articles/b24ho.htm

Please visit this site and read the statements first hand.

Acourding to the ACCC website, the focus of the ACCC’s proceedings is the ACN’s marketing system. Independent Representatives pay ACN $548 (including GST) and sell those services to consumers. Independent Representatives also have the right to recruit other independent Representatives.

It appears that the $500 dollar fee ACN charges is illegal. So it may be just a matter of time before the FTC catches up with ACN in your state, especially if the ACCC is successful with it’s prosecution of ACN as an illegal pyramid in Australia.

Have a nice week.

[Poncho]

April47,

You sound like a nice person. I appreciate what you had to say and especially that you do not try to “con” your friends into becoming reps. This is good! I can tell that you have a lot of passion for what you are doing.

I am interested who these anonymous 3 former state attorney’s generals are. Please let me know. I keep hearing this as an argument of ACN to rebuttal the question at hand; Is ACN legit? How does having attorneys / lawyers on staff make your company legal and legit.

Lawyers without character can be very dangerous and detrimental to society. Enron had lots of corrupt lawyer covering up for corrupt CEOs and the working class suffered losing big time, everything; so did clinton with his white***** venture.

If ACN is an illegal pyramid as the Canadian and Australian government alleges then having good lawyers like “3 former state attorneys.” is a really good idea. Having good lawyers and contracts will make it harder for the FTC in the homeland shut you down.

OJ Simpson had a really good Lawyer. So you might be safe . . . but then again you might not. Well see how good Micheal Jacksons lawyer is.

Have a good week.

[April47]

[quote=Poncho]
I am interested who these anonymous 3 former state attorney’s generals are. Please let me know. I keep hearing this as an argument of ACN to rebuttal the question at hand; Is ACN legit? How does having attorneys / lawyers on staff make your company legal and legit. QUOTE]

Bob Stephen - Former Attorney General for the state of Kansas
Former past president of the National Association of Attorney
Generals
Former Judge 13 years

Chris Gorman - Former Attorney General for the state of Kentucky
Expert in the direct selling industry

Grant Woods - Former Attorney General for the state of Arizona
Expert in consumer affairs


I understand your point of some lawyers being bad, but i don't understand why 3 men of this stature would associate their name with an illegal pyramid. I personally don't believe they would. They have been there since day one making sure that things are running right, and I believe that they are.



You're starting to sound a lot like jvaldez by the way... it wouldn't surprise me if you were him... haha

[at1]

April it is him why they hateing on this company i have no idea..

[scambuster]

Originally Posted by at1

April it is him why they hateing on this company i have no idea..

Get back in the ghetto...what are you trying to say?

[at1]

I am saying why are they strongly trying to discredit, such a wonderful organization :D

Or


Day Be hatein on ACN!!

[scambuster]

Hee hee....a sense of humor at last!

Don't be hatin'


:)

Tip o' the hat to ye for being real!

[mobster0024]

Originally Posted by Poncho

Rocksolid -

Thank you for your input. Have you heard anything from the proceedings from the Feb. 21, 2005 court in Australia? I am really curious if ACN is in the green or if the ACCC was successful in their prosecution of ACN’s alleged illegal Pyramid Schemes.

To address the $499. dollar investment I did some research to find out what makes an illegal Pyramid. Again, the question at hand “Is ACN legit?”

This is what Jeffrey A. Babener, a partner in the Portland, Oregon, law firm Babener & Associates, that represents many of the leading direct selling companies in the United States and abroad has to say about “Identifying Illegal Pyramid Schemes”

He says that if you are in a Pyramid “YOU ARE A CROOK”.

These are harsh words coming from an MLM expert lawyer so I think that all ACN’s independent reps should seek the truth about their company and beware of the deception that exists in a pyramid type company. They cannot exist unless they have you decived, hence, the Kool-Aid.

The Oregon Attorney goes on to list ways to identify red flags that may cause law enforcement agencies to investigate a business:

“Programs that require substantial initial cash investments . According to Babener, many states consider a required up-front investment of $500 or more to be "substantial" and thus likely to attract the attention of law enforcement.”
http://www.mlmstartup.com/articles/b24ho.htm

Please visit this site and read the statements first hand.

Acourding to the ACCC website, the focus of the ACCC’s proceedings is the ACN’s marketing system. Independent Representatives pay ACN $548 (including GST) and sell those services to consumers. Independent Representatives also have the right to recruit other independent Representatives.

It appears that the $500 dollar fee ACN charges is illegal. So it may be just a matter of time before the FTC catches up with ACN in your state, especially if the ACCC is successful with it’s prosecution of ACN as an illegal pyramid in Australia.

Have a nice week.

To All the Hard working Reps in ACN, I have this advice for you, stay off boards like this for it is full of bitter past reps with other companies who are out to try and destroy your dream. they all know there is money to be made out there and for whatever reason their fails have left them with a sour taste. just keep up with what you're doing cause this company is kicking strong and only gonna get better.
Ignore this Non-Sense! Ask Fortune Magazine on why they write about ACN? Ask Inc Magazine. all you reps should be in Detroit at our next National to see the main office for yourself. There's no time to pay attention to this. It's not even a question if it's legit or not. These write ups are work of failures who didn't make it in ACN or with whomever they were with before. What do you think about the $1,000 bonus in 30 days when you hit ETT? That's money back 200%. How can that be a scam? more importantly, Surround yourself with people who have the same objective in ACN. that's all i wanna say. ACN,ACN,ACN,ACN,ACN,ACN

[jvaldez]

Q) How much would you make selling 20 customers service with a real phone company?
A) A hell of a lot more than 500.00! You MLMers are getting SCAMED!

Originally Posted by at1

He does by letting you get you're investment back by just getting 20 customers, why foolish people sign up with out getting 20 customers i have no idea and if it was free people wouldn't take it seriously ill pay 500 knowing i can get it back

[jvaldez]

April - Your posting is a joke. ACN has so many unresolved BBB reports is laughable. The ex-attorney generals on your payroll is hilarious!!! Talk to current attorney generals and see what they have to say about MLM telecom companies. There are so many reports on companies like ACN, its unbelievable. You MLMers crack me up with your 200 acres and a pig farm come true stories. Now your throwing fast cars in the mix! Don’t you ever stop??? Its always the folks that talk about money that usually don’t have it. Good luck on the ACN retirement plan!

Originally Posted by April47

Poncho,

I haven't read most of this thread since last time i posted, but i did happen to come across your post. You mentioned that you think ACN may be an illegal pyramid.. I would just like you to ask yourself these few questions....

Why would ACN be an illegal pyramid with 3 former state attorneys general on board? (who by the way used to SHUT DOWN companies that were running illegally)
Why would Fortune magazine put an illegal pyramid in their magazine TWICE?
Why would the BBB allow an illegal pyramid to be a member for the past 12 years?

you can do all the research you want... you will not find anything that Fortune and the BBB did not find... and if you do... you should tell them you want a job because i'm sure they'd hire you


everyone will have their likes and dislikes about ACN as well as any other MLM company... same with any business on this planet. Yes, in ACN we do recruit, but I know that is not what we FOCUS on, or at least my team doesn't. My team gets a few reps here and there, but I don't push anyone into doing anything they don't want to, and I make sure they know the truths, the ups and downs, before they get into this business... because to me $499 is a LOT of money, and I do not want anyone to feel that I conned them. If someone decides to pay the $499, they still have 10 days to get their money back if they decide it is not for them, OR they have 30 days to EARN their money back. Also, if someone pays the $499 and does not get any customers, you make nothing. How can anyone say that the focus is on reps when WE DO NOT GET PAID FOR NEW REPS IF NO CUSTOMERS ARE AQUIRED?

really... you all can think what you want.... but ACN works... I've seen it work for countless people, countless times... honestly we are not allowed to say exactly what people make... (this was told to us by bob stephan... and i am not going to against what he says.. cause frankly i'm not getting kicked out of the company over you people) but I can say that it has allowed my ex-boyfriend to buy his 213 acre farm and his dream house... a thing which he would've never been able to do working at his old job... it has allowed another one of my friends to buy his dream car... a BMW M3... and another one of my friends has a corvette... you can chose whether or not to believe all of this... i don't really care... i just know that i've SEEN it work... and i'm not going to just sit here and let people bash ACN.. and sway new or interested reps from going after their dreams....

The whole key is what YOU are WILLING to do.... if you don't want to work for it DON'T GET INTO ACN... but if you're willing to put some time and effort into it (more time if you want to achieve your goals FAST... and less time if you don't care if it takes you 10 years) then you WILL get where you want to go in this company... there is no doubt in my mind. So say what you want everyone... but you can't change my opinion... because i've PERSONALLY SEEN what this company does for people.... I just hope that none of you new or potential reps let all this overanalyzed crap sway you from achieving what you couldn't achieve under normal circumstances...

thanks for listening... (and don't bother responding jvaldez because i'm not going to argue with you)

April :)

[April47]

Originally Posted by jvaldez

April - Your posting is a joke. ACN has so many unresolved BBB reports is laughable. The ex-attorney generals on your payroll is hilarious!!! Talk to current attorney generals and see what they have to say about MLM telecom companies. There are so many reports on companies like ACN, its unbelievable. You MLMers crack me up with your 200 acres and a pig farm come true stories. Now your throwing fast cars in the mix! Don’t you ever stop??? Its always the folks that talk about money that usually don’t have it. Good luck on the ACN retirement plan!

blah blah blah....


like i said in my post... believe what you want.. i really don't care... i just know what i see... (oh and i never said i had money... honestly i haven't done crap with ACN in a while because i've been pregnant and just don't feel like working at it... but it's my fault i'm not making anything... not ACN's) if you would read right... you'd notice i said that people i know have that stuff... and they do... i'm not trying to brag about it (especially since none of it is even mine) i'm just saying that's why i have so much belief in this company and that you CAN make money with it... because I'VE SEEN IT DONE...

thanks :)

[scambuster]

Originally Posted by April47

blah blah blah....


like i said in my post... believe what you want.. i really don't care... i just know what i see... (oh and i never said i had money... honestly i haven't done crap with ACN in a while because i've been pregnant and just don't feel like working at it... but it's my fault i'm not making anything... not ACN's) if you would read right... you'd notice i said that people i know have that stuff... and they do... i'm not trying to brag about it (especially since none of it is even mine) i'm just saying that's why i have so much belief in this company and that you CAN make money with it... because I'VE SEEN IT DONE...

thanks :)

How's our baby? :)





















...waiting for the explosion!

[jvaldez]

April – First off let me start by saying Congratulations. I hope that all is going well with your pregnancy and all turns out wonderful for you and your family.

I’ll start off by saying ACN is a highly leveraged sales environment. Much can be said about the sales organizations in mainstream telecommunications, very fast paced and highly leveraged. Your comments rein true in any highly leveraged sales organization, work hard and reap the rewards. This is not a characteristic not exclusive to ACN; it transcends industries and life in general. In summary, it might be fair to say sales is not for everybody.

When I see folks blasting Poncho because he shared his view, it is not fair. The ACN proposition in general I personally think is a joke. You have to pay to work. You get no benefits. In your case you’re pregnant with no benefits. Since you can’t work, you won’t get paid. This is typical in a 1099 environment, not in the W2 world where legislation exists to look after employees.

The arguments and quotes coming from MLMers about real estate, fast cars and money is pretty funny. Factor in the other comments made by MLMers on this string and what do you have, a great deal of hype and little substance. I have yet to see the benefit of working your tail off with no benefit from the employer that just indemnified themselves by making you a 1099er. How could any kind of responsibly run company ever do that? Only in America!

Originally Posted by April47

blah blah blah....


like i said in my post... believe what you want.. i really don't care... i just know what i see... (oh and i never said i had money... honestly i haven't done crap with ACN in a while because i've been pregnant and just don't feel like working at it... but it's my fault i'm not making anything... not ACN's) if you would read right... you'd notice i said that people i know have that stuff... and they do... i'm not trying to brag about it (especially since none of it is even mine) i'm just saying that's why i have so much belief in this company and that you CAN make money with it... because I'VE SEEN IT DONE...

thanks :)

[capthook]

Having spent some time reading this thread and really researching the opportunity at hand I have just a couple of questions for any one out there, particularly those who hesitate about ACN charging $499.

Jvaldez and Poncho I want you to simply answer this question. Don't look into it any deeper than I am asking and don't try to spin what I say like you have done in the past.

Hypothetical situation here but please answer the question (don't look into it any further than just the question)

Lets say you start your own business. You work very hard at your business, a big part of your business is getting new customers to use your service. After about a year you have over 500 regular customers who purchase your service every month. This adds up to about $10,000 in monthly billing for you. Your business has grown so much that you all by yourself can't handle all of the billing and customer service. You need help.

A company approaches you and says they will take over billing and customer service for you for a down payment of $2000 and an anual fee of $500 that is it. No matter how big your business grows they will just charge you that $500 anual fee.

This company is a very trusted and respected company and they do a very professional job of handling everything so there really isn't a problem you even have a couple of buddies who own their own business and highly recomend them.

If that were the case would you pay that money to go with the company?

[at1]

GOOD and i mean REALLY good question i know i would pay it!

[April47]

Originally Posted by jvaldez

April – First off let me start by saying Congratulations. I hope that all is going well with your pregnancy and all turns out wonderful for you and your family.

I’ll start off by saying ACN is a highly leveraged sales environment. Much can be said about the sales organizations in mainstream telecommunications, very fast paced and highly leveraged. Your comments rein true in any highly leveraged sales organization, work hard and reap the rewards. This is not a characteristic not exclusive to ACN; it transcends industries and life in general. In summary, it might be fair to say sales is not for everybody.

When I see folks blasting Poncho because he shared his view, it is not fair. The ACN proposition in general I personally think is a joke. You have to pay to work. You get no benefits. In your case you’re pregnant with no benefits. Since you can’t work, you won’t get paid. This is typical in a 1099 environment, not in the W2 world where legislation exists to look after employees.

The arguments and quotes coming from MLMers about real estate, fast cars and money is pretty funny. Factor in the other comments made by MLMers on this string and what do you have, a great deal of hype and little substance. I have yet to see the benefit of working your tail off with no benefit from the employer that just indemnified themselves by making you a 1099er. How could any kind of responsibly run company ever do that? Only in America!

Thank you... I have been having a very tough time with the pregnancy, which is why I haven't been working on ACN, but the baby is very healthy so it's all worth it :)

First I would like to say.. yes.. i agree.. sales is NOT for everybody... ACN is not for everybody... the internet is not for everybody... college is not for everybody... NOTHING is for everybody... and yes they do like to say "ACN is for everybody" but i would agree that it is not... if you don't like calling people, or going to trainings, or having home meetings... ACN is NOT FOR YOU... if you are not in the least bit motivated.. or are expecting some "easy money" ACN IS NOT FOR YOU...

I understand what you are saying about paying to work for a company with no benefits, but honestly.. my dad owns a small business.. and he doesn't have benefits either. I think that goes with the territory. There are benefits programs out there for people that own small businesses, so there are options. I don't expect ACN to pay for my health.

I don't understand what makes a business a business.. or a 1099 environment not a business... nor do I care.. I get to claim things on my taxes now, and I get paid when I actually do something... so that keeps me happy.

I didn't mean to blast Poncho, actually I don't think I did, so I don't know if that comment was meant for me. I just don't like how he was saying that he thinks ACN is an illegal pyramid when there is so much saying that it is not, and I just wanted to voice my opinion on the matter.

I don't see why quotes about real estate and fast cars are funny. I wouldn't have said it if it wasn't true. If you really don't believe me, you can drive your butt to PA and I'll show you. There's no hype... there really is a farm and those cars. I don't know what's so hard for you to believe there. I think you just don't WANT it to be true.. but the FACT is... it's true. My friend's residual payment is paying for his corvette... my other friend's is paying for his M3... and my ex's business is paying for his farm and house... (he has no other job... ACN is all he does... so he's gotta be paying for it somehow, am i right?)

[jvaldez]

Dear Mr. Hook – No! Why? I don’t deal in hypotheticals when it comes to business or finance, I deal in fact. I would like to put some fact behind your numbers and share with you my thoughts. According to your numbers and your scenario, we are dealing with the following:

- Small business selling telecom.
- After 1 year I have over 500 customers. For our calculation, I will use 500.
- Monthly billing is 10,000 USD per month.
- Another business offers to take over post sale responsibilities for 2,500 USD.
- Every year I have to pay an additional 500 USD.

Let’s dissect your stats further, here are some of my facts:

- 500 customers per year equals 41.6 clients per month. For simplicity sake, let’s round this figure to 42.
- Based on 22 business days per month, that is 1.909 customers per day. Lets round that to 2.
- The 10,000 USD billing per month would not change. Annually this would be 120,000 USD.

Now that we’re in sync here let’s look at the facts.

1) I am not paying you a penny to take my customer paying revenue base over. If anybody is getting paid, it’s ME. I was born at night but not last night.
2) Based on the volume I would negotiate my own reseller agreement with either SBC, Verizon, or Qwest. This would let me sell their entire portfolio ( local – ld – card – internet – 800 – international – operator service – dsl – call center solutions – managed services - cellular – etc. ).
3) At these REVENUE LEVELS ( 10k MONTHLY ), the RBOCs would be taking you out to dinner every weekend and paying you a commission check every month for a percentage of the usage.
4) The RBOCs will gladly do all the back off post sales support and not rape you in the process.
5) If I wanted to add another sales rep to my base, they would not have to pay a fee to enter my company. They would get paid a salary, commission, and be offered real benefits!
6) At this rate using this model, I could pay the really good MLM reps 20% to 30% more than what they are getting paid today and, offer benefits.
7) The emphasis would be to grow your commissionable base and get paid on it, not grow a F*&$@#! Pyramid.

That’s just me.

What would you do?

Would you give your base away and pay somebody in the process?

Would you let somebody take the equity in your house and pay them 2.5K to do so?

If you were capable of generating 2 sales a day, would you scrap everything for an MLM pyramid scheme?

I could go on but I want you to come back. Don’t want to scare you off.

These are the facts, no hypotheticals here Mr. Hook. Your going to have to go back to the halls of wisdom in Michigan to orchestrate your next come back. No matter what it is, you know I’ll be counting the seconds till your next response!

Have A Nice Evening…

Originally Posted by capthook

Having spent some time reading this thread and really researching the opportunity at hand I have just a couple of questions for any one out there, particularly those who hesitate about ACN charging $499.

Jvaldez and Poncho I want you to simply answer this question. Don't look into it any deeper than I am asking and don't try to spin what I say like you have done in the past.

Hypothetical situation here but please answer the question (don't look into it any further than just the question)

Lets say you start your own business. You work very hard at your business, a big part of your business is getting new customers to use your service. After about a year you have over 500 regular customers who purchase your service every month. This adds up to about $10,000 in monthly billing for you. Your business has grown so much that you all by yourself can't handle all of the billing and customer service. You need help.

A company approaches you and says they will take over billing and customer service for you for a down payment of $2000 and an anual fee of $500 that is it. No matter how big your business grows they will just charge you that $500 anual fee.

This company is a very trusted and respected company and they do a very professional job of handling everything so there really isn't a problem you even have a couple of buddies who own their own business and highly recomend them.

If that were the case would you pay that money to go with the company?

[capthook]

Never did I say that it was a telecom company. Nor did I say I was an ACN rep.

All I asked is if that was the situation would you do it.

The problem Mr. Valdez is this. You are so focused on proving people wrong that you can't even just answer a simple question.

I think you spend way too much time thinking and not enough time listening.

I did not ask you to give me any of that information I asked you to answer a question.

It wasn't the numbers I was focusing on but the fact that you became so overwhelmed with your business you needed help to keep things running smoothly.

To not take help in that situation to make sure your business was running smoothly either means you love to torture yourself or you are not the smartest businessman in the world. (probably the later)

Remember I never said this was a telecom company. You just jumped to conclusions like you have done through this entire thread.

But by answering as you did just proved one thing. You are very closed minded and can only see things one way.

I have no comeback for you because there is nothing to comeback to.

[jvaldez]

The answer to your hypothetical question is still NO. Spin it anyway you want to your advantage, you can’t run or hide from the facts. I don’t care if your selling cotton balls or LD, if you have an engrained customer base with a 10K a month revenue stream, you don’t pay somebody 2.5K to take over the post sales and give up your revenue stream. As I said in my posting, would you pay somebody 2.5K to take the equity in your house? Hell No! I respond to boneheads like you as you give your profession a bad name. You deal in hypotheticals, spin and Bull S*%# and I deal in facts.

Originally Posted by capthook

Never did I say that it was a telecom company. Nor did I say I was an ACN rep.

All I asked is if that was the situation would you do it.

The problem Mr. Valdez is this. You are so focused on proving people wrong that you can't even just answer a simple question.

I think you spend way too much time thinking and not enough time listening.

I did not ask you to give me any of that information I asked you to answer a question.

It wasn't the numbers I was focusing on but the fact that you became so overwhelmed with your business you needed help to keep things running smoothly.

To not take help in that situation to make sure your business was running smoothly either means you love to torture yourself or you are not the smartest businessman in the world. (probably the later)

Remember I never said this was a telecom company. You just jumped to conclusions like you have done through this entire thread.

But by answering as you did just proved one thing. You are very closed minded and can only see things one way.

I have no comeback for you because there is nothing to comeback to.

[bman]

This thread just keeps getting funnier and funnier.

Your answers rock jvaldez (please note the sarcasim)

[jvaldez]

I have a very low threshold for individuals who ignore fact and defer to hypotheticals when making a point. I get several calls and emails each day from those in the industry that read this string. The MLM arguments are off the charts!!! There is one national organization of IT consultants that is looking at the string and weighing its value as a training aid. The joke is the seminar could be called Bottom Of The Barrel. I’ll give you one guess who they’re referring to. One clue, its not me! Please keep the postings coming!!!

Thanks and Have A Nice Evening

Originally Posted by bman

This thread just keeps getting funnier and funnier.

Your answers rock jvaldez (please note the sarcasim)

[bman]

Wow you really are an important person. People call you because of a thread I stand corrected. I will quit everything I have built up to this point because of you thanks for changing my life for me.

[Poncho]

http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/...d/pyramids.htmPlease visit this for more information This site does a really good job of explaining all about Illegal pyramid scheme.

Who are the Victims?

Most pyramid schemes seem intent on exploiting people with limited means and limited knowledge of business such as individuals who have little experience in direct sales, distributorships, or franchise enterprises or who have limited money or credit with which to establish their own businesses.
They rely on widespread ignorance of basic mathematics. Participants are promised large rewards for putting up a certain amount of money and then recruiting the next level of members. But the schemes always collapse because the supply of potential recruits quickly runs out, making many participants both victims and perpetrators.
Many victims of these scams sell first to their friends. When the supposed money-making opportunity goes belly up, most lose not only their money — but also their friends.

Why Would Anyone Pay to Join a Pyramid?

They're sold to investors with the assurance that they are perfectly legal, approved by the IRS or a CPA, and that they are definitely "not" a pyramid scheme. Promoters may even flaunt the fact that they are illegal and are therefore secret and exclusive. This adds to the allure and mystery of this larcenous, but seemingly harmless, act.
When the expected wealth does not materialize, participants often blame their own lack of recruiting skills for the failure, rather than the original promoters who have benefited most, and almost exclusively, from their deception.
The pyramid promoter is likely to persuade the investor that he is "getting in early" and that he should consider himself at the top of the matrix. Most participants don't envision themselves anywhere near the bottom layer of the pyramid.
Even the greediest person on the planet would probably see that if one is near the bottom layer it will be very hard to get new recruits. They have to see themselves near the top in order to envision the immense wealth, from minimal effort, that is going to come their way.
The con artist at the top views each new investor as a predicable set of revenues and expenses, with the revenues flowing directly to him. He happily pays out commissions for the recruitment efforts of others.
Investigators say pyramid schemes come in waves of three to six years and rise during times of economic boom by playing upon the greed and envy among those who are eager to participate in moneymaking ventures.
As the losers rarely advertise the truth of their folly, the myth of their success resurfaces with each new outbreak.

Legal Aspects

Pyramids are deceptive and participants in a pyramid, whether they mean to or not, are deceiving those they recruit. Few would pay to join if the odds stacked against them were fully explained.
Because pyramid sales plans are by their very nature deceptive, they are illegal. There is a real risk that a pyramid operation will be closed down by police and the participants subject to fines and possible arrest.
In Canada, the Competition Act explains the differences between multi-level marketing and pyramid selling, and sets out the responsibilities for operators and participants in these types of plans. Multi-level marketing, when it operates within the limits set by the Competition Act, is a legal business activity, while pyramid selling is a multi-level marketing plan that incorporates various deceptive marketing practices, making it a criminal offence under the Competition Act.

It is illegal to:

• pay money for the right to receive compensation for recruiting new participants;
• require a participant to buy specific products before he/she is allowed to join the plan;
• sell unreasonable quantities of the product or products to participants (this practice is called inventory loading); and
• refuse to allow participants to return products on reasonable commercial terms

People who break the law relating to multi-level marketing or pyramid selling can be convicted and sentenced to a fine or a prison term. Amendments to the Act passed in 1999 now allow the court to impose a fine of up to $200,000 or a prison term of up to one year, or both, for a less serious offence. For a more serious offence, the court may set its own fine or a prison term of up to five years, or both.

The Bureau conducts its investigations in private and keeps confidential the identity of the source and the information provided. However, if someone has important evidence about an offence under the Act, that person may be asked to testify in court.

Sometimes, no clear line separates illegal pyramid schemes from legitimate multilevel marketing programs. To differentiate between the two regulators in the U.S. evaluate the marketing strategy (e.g., emphasis on recruitment versus sales) and the percentage of product sold compared with the percentage of commissions granted.

A business venture that meets all three of these descriptions is an illegal pyramid:

1. You must make an investment to get the right to recruit others into the program...and
2. When you recruit another person into the program, you receive what the law calls "consideration." That usually means money, but can be anything of value...and
3. Your new recruits must make an investment to get the right to recruit, and they receive "consideration" for getting others to join.

An investment includes any money paid to enter the venture. Though it may be called a "membership fee" or "bookkeeping charge," the law still considers it to be an investment. And an inventory of products you must buy to re-sell is also considered to be an investment. Giving of your time or talents, or buying demonstration samples at cost is not considered to be an investment under the law.

Blaming the Government For a Pyramids Downfall

To survive, pyramids need to keep and attract as many members as possible. Thus, promoters try to appeal to a sense of community or solidarity, while chastising outsiders or skeptics. Often the government is the target of the pyramid's collective wrath, particularly when the scheme is about to be dismantled.

FTC attorneys now know to expect picketers and a packed courtroom when they file suit to halt a pyramid scheme. Half of the pyramid's recruits may see themselves as victims of a scam that they took too long to stop; the other half may view themselves as victims of government meddling that ruined their chance to make millions.

http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/...d/pyramids.htm

[Rocksolid]

'Knowing the Real Thing'

Network Marketing or Multi-level Marketing (MLM) will always have it's detractors. So how do we know what is a genuine MLM company and what is a Pyramid Scheme? Take a look at the following points. We hope this will help you to 'KNOW THE REAL THING'

Pyramid Schemes
• Pay income on Rep recruitment
• Rely on Rep recruitment to allow the Sponsors or Uplines to make money
• Monthly Rep income is directly affected by Rep sponsoring levels
• Those at the top are the only ones making any money
• Have no viable, credible, or usable services or products
• No tangible Rep or Customer Support
• No clear definition between a Customer and a Rep
• Mainly Rep sponsoring focused, little Customer acquisition focus
• Usually use a Binary Compensation Plan, which is where the term "pyramid" came from
• Do not last long in the market

Genuine MLM
• Do not pay income on Reps joining
• Rely on Customers using the products or services as a means of creating income
• Have credible products or services, at market competitive prices
• Customers will benefit in their own right - Strong Customer focus
• Do not charge Customers to join
• Toll free Customer and Rep Support
• Allow Reps to keep on earning from their Customers even if no new Reps join their team.
• All care and maintenance of Customers is handled by the Company
• Create income potential for all Reps no matter what size their Customer base is.
• Don't use a Binary Compensation Plan
• Have proven themselves in the market

ACN Meets all the criteria of a Genuine MLM company. Clearly ACN is a recognised as a reputable Telecommunication and ****** MLM company. You can be assured of this.

Now you can promote with confidence. There will be people for whatever reason that will knock you or the company. The Company's track record over 12 years speaks for itself.

MLM'ers can actually use some of the baseless comments in this forum for their own training. As I quoted previously, the emotive opinions here serve to train and reinforce peoples ideals.

It is good to hear criticism, but let it be known, that most criticsm involves more opinion than fact. It takes a strong, wise person to notice the difference.

I am curious jvaldez how many of these IT Specialists are there at this Conference?, and how many have run their own business, or held a Senior management position(not IT) in a multi-national company?

[capthook]

Face it guys ACN isn't an illegal pyramid. The numerous articles in Fortune, Success, Inc & USA Today have probably garnerd enough attention that the government has checked into it.

Mr. Valdez in response to your response to my question let me explain something.

That was exactly the situation I was in with my own business (no it wasn't ACN) I was very busy and needed some of the "busy work" taken off my hands. Although my business was doing well for one person it wasn't at the point where I could hire someone to take that load from me. Any business owner in their right mind would gladly pay a small amount to have that headache taken from them, it freed up my evenings so I could spend that time with my family. The numbers I stated may not be the exact numbers but it was just to make a point.

Any one who owns a business would look at ACN's $499 fee and say "I only have to pay $499 to have all of my customer service, billing and marketing taken care of for me?! That is awesome." The first thing that my friend said when he heard it was only $499 was "I have spent over a million dollars to keep my business up and running this is a no brainer."

You ask for facts I think Rocksolid pretty much showed once again how ACN is legit he is a smart guy and while I credit Poncho for his research I task both of you to research ACN and learn exactly how they work before you continue with your attacks. Sit down with the founders ask them questions, learn from those who are really in the know and don't just assume anything.

Here are some personal facts that I know about ACN and the business I have built within the company.

Fact - ACN is growing
Fact - They provide services people use every day
Fact - I have 1,000 customers so far and I haven't heard any complaints
Fact - All of my customers are aware that ACN doesn't own the lines and that doesn't seem to bother them.
Fact - ACN has awesome 24 hour customer service and support
Fact - My friend had line problems and it got fixed in a very timely manner
Fact - In researching the company I have learned that everything the owners have said would happen has happend.
Fact - Jvaldez knows his stuff when it comes to telecom
Fact - Still doesn't change the fact that ACN is growing
Fact - Neither I nor my customers care what Jvaldez thinks.
Fact - I too can't believe I got sucked into this little debate
Fact - My business is growing and I am really enjoying it
Fact - I need a nap

Bottom line is you can keep posting all you want it still doesn't change a thing. ACN isn't the biggest, they aren't even the first company to come out with new products but they are legit and they are growing like crazy so it looks like some of us negative people (you know who you are) are just going to have to deal with it.

[panda]

FACT - ACN at Finland closed
see: http://www2.acneuro.com/acn/fi_en/pr...hony/index.jsp

[jvaldez]

There were over 1500 active members last time I checked. The vast majority own and run consulting firms. There are some independents as well as members from the fortune 500. The members I know are all savvy in both domestic and international affairs. Some of us, myself included, have lived overseas and worked government / private sector projects.

Have A Nice Evening...

Originally Posted by Rocksolid

'Knowing the Real Thing'

Network Marketing or Multi-level Marketing (MLM) will always have it's detractors. So how do we know what is a genuine MLM company and what is a Pyramid Scheme? Take a look at the following points. We hope this will help you to 'KNOW THE REAL THING'

Pyramid Schemes
• Pay income on Rep recruitment
• Rely on Rep recruitment to allow the Sponsors or Uplines to make money
• Monthly Rep income is directly affected by Rep sponsoring levels
• Those at the top are the only ones making any money
• Have no viable, credible, or usable services or products
• No tangible Rep or Customer Support
• No clear definition between a Customer and a Rep
• Mainly Rep sponsoring focused, little Customer acquisition focus
• Usually use a Binary Compensation Plan, which is where the term "pyramid" came from
• Do not last long in the market

Genuine MLM
• Do not pay income on Reps joining
• Rely on Customers using the products or services as a means of creating income
• Have credible products or services, at market competitive prices
• Customers will benefit in their own right - Strong Customer focus
• Do not charge Customers to join
• Toll free Customer and Rep Support
• Allow Reps to keep on earning from their Customers even if no new Reps join their team.
• All care and maintenance of Customers is handled by the Company
• Create income potential for all Reps no matter what size their Customer base is.
• Don't use a Binary Compensation Plan
• Have proven themselves in the market

ACN Meets all the criteria of a Genuine MLM company. Clearly ACN is a recognised as a reputable Telecommunication and ****** MLM company. You can be assured of this.

Now you can promote with confidence. There will be people for whatever reason that will knock you or the company. The Company's track record over 12 years speaks for itself.

MLM'ers can actually use some of the baseless comments in this forum for their own training. As I quoted previously, the emotive opinions here serve to train and reinforce peoples ideals.

It is good to hear criticism, but let it be known, that most criticsm involves more opinion than fact. It takes a strong, wise person to notice the difference.

I am curious jvaldez how many of these IT Specialists are there at this Conference?, and how many have run their own business, or held a Senior management position(not IT) in a multi-national company?

[jvaldez]

Interesting post. The ACN customers were given to Sonera. Sonera was the former state run phone company. MLM will fly in the USA but overseas its a different game. Any hint of illegitimate behavior and you will be shut down. Being shut down in Finland is amazing as the regulatory environment governing telecom is extremely liberal.

Thanks For The Info…

Originally Posted by panda

FACT - ACN at Finland closed
see: http://www2.acneuro.com/acn/fi_en/pr...hony/index.jsp

[Poncho]

FACT - The Australian Federal Court is prosecuting ACN as an illegal pyramid scheme. The ACCC instituted proceedings on Monday, 15 November 2004 against ACN for alleged breaches of the pyramid selling scheme provisions of the Trade Practices Act 1974. A trial is scheduled in the week beginning 21 February 2005. Anybody know how it is going for ACN in Australia?

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.../itemId/550685

[at1]

FacT acn wont be stoped in the US people are still making millions with it in the US and you two are just VERY VERY BITTER

[Poncho]

Originally Posted by at1

FacT acn wont be stoped in the US people are still making millions with it in the US and you two are just VERY VERY BITTER

At1, I’ll let you in on a little secret that ACN does not what you to know, I’ll put it in caps so you can read it easier.

THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE MAKING MILLIONS ARE MAKING THERE MILLIONS BY DECIVING INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOU.

I genuinely feel sorry for you because of the way the persuasive, get rich, easy money, sales pitch has you so deceived you can’t see the truth. You are entangled in a snare by your greed like a little helpless animal.

My guess is that you have been exploded because you have limited means and limited knowledge of business and have little experience in direct sales, telecommunication, ******, or franchise enterprises, and maybe you struggle a little with basic mathematics; you become ripe for the picking by money hungry con artists. Who you are is not your fault. You are a victim.

Your promoters have probably coned you and promised you large rewards for putting up your 500 dollars and then have pumped you up to recruit the next level of members ACN, ACN, ACN, ACN, ACN. (This is also known as brain washing, Hitler was really good at it he convinced good people to do horrific things.) They probably have you coned into thinking that you are “getting in early” and that you are at the top of the matrix and probably have you thinking that you are going to make millions. Don’t feel bad though you are not the only one. Think of all the pour people in Finland and Australia where ACN has been shut down for this very reason.

You should ask yourself why I haven’t made millions yet. I challenge you to come up with your own answer and not the baloney from your promoters. You are probably blaming yourself as April47 is for not having time to work it or blame yourself for a lack of recruiting skills for your failure, rather than the blaming the original promoters who have deceived you into thinking that it will work if you just try a little harder. The government has passed laws to protect society, especially you. I hope you find the truth.

The truth will set you free.

[jvaldez]

Awesome Posting!!!

Originally Posted by Poncho

At1, I’ll let you in on a little secret that ACN does not what you to know, I’ll put it in caps so you can read it easier.

THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE MAKING MILLIONS ARE MAKING THERE MILLIONS BY DECIVING INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOU.

I genuinely feel sorry for you because of the way the persuasive, get rich, easy money, sales pitch has you so deceived you can’t see the truth. You are entangled in a snare by your greed like a little helpless animal.

My guess is that you have been exploded because you have limited means and limited knowledge of business and have little experience in direct sales, telecommunication, ******, or franchise enterprises, and maybe you struggle a little with basic mathematics; you become ripe for the picking by money hungry con artists. Who you are is not your fault. You are a victim.

Your promoters have probably coned you and promised you large rewards for putting up your 500 dollars and then have pumped you up to recruit the next level of members ACN, ACN, ACN, ACN, ACN. (This is also known as brain washing, Hitler was really good at it he convinced good people to do horrific things.) They probably have you coned into thinking that you are “getting in early” and that you are at the top of the matrix and probably have you thinking that you are going to make millions. Don’t feel bad though you are not the only one. Think of all the pour people in Finland and Australia where ACN has been shut down for this very reason.

You should ask yourself why I haven’t made millions yet. I challenge you to come up with your own answer and not the baloney from your promoters. You are probably blaming yourself as April47 is for not having time to work it or blame yourself for a lack of recruiting skills for your failure, rather than the blaming the original promoters who have deceived you into thinking that it will work if you just try a little harder. The government has passed laws to protect society, especially you. I hope you find the truth.

The truth will set you free.

[jvaldez]

I am not bitter, I've made money by traditional means, hard work. Somebody at ACN is making millions, the principles that set up the scam are. ACN will be stopped, its called free LD. When this happens they will find themselves in a zero margin business. Once this happens they will move on to the next scheme and next batch of gullible individuals.

Have A Nice Day...

Originally Posted by at1

FacT acn wont be stoped in the US people are still making millions with it in the US and you two are just VERY VERY BITTER

[at1]

Hah my aunt makes 20K cash a month A MONTH her best freind who is a "SC" brings in 60 to 70K a month. The proof is in the pudding they both been doing this company less then a year so please ahha you know what i am looking at my clock it must be lunch time for you 9 to 5ers!

[Rocksolid]

Panda

Don't bother posting again, you have been busted. Finland is not closed ACN is in a co-operation agreement to sell Tele Finland branded services. It is business as usual. This is planned to fastrack ACN selling other services in Finland.

Jvaldez, how are you going to explain to these IT colleagues you talk about, that you repeated mispresent the facts. ACN has signed 8,000 Reps alone in Australia, who are all classed as active. Where did you get the 1500 worldwide from. But hey, you do make a good spin doctor

It is amazing that people stretch the truth to suit their bias and opinions, but keep it up, it makes interesting reading.

[jvaldez]

You poor lad, sounds like you have it rough! Thank you for responding to my posting. I know you must be exhausted from counting all that money your making. I'm sure you go to scam.com as you take breaks from counting all that money. I'll let you go so you can resume counting all that money you made in your pyramid scheme. You must be the envy of your trailer park!

Originally Posted by at1

Hah my aunt makes 20K cash a month A MONTH her best freind who is a "SC" brings in 60 to 70K a month. The proof is in the pudding they both been doing this company less then a year so please ahha you know what i am looking at my clock it must be lunch time for you 9 to 5ers!

[jvaldez]

Rocksolid - Did you OD on noni juice? You must have fluid on the brain. You asked me the following:

Q: I am curious jvaldez how many of these IT Specialists are there at this Conference?, and how many have run their own business, or held a Senior management position(not IT) in a multi-national company?

My answer was as follows:

A: There were over 1500 active members last time I checked.

Somewhere in your ACN induced intoxication you seem to have confused this with active members in Australia??? Better yet, your defense of ACN Finland is off the charts insane!!! Here is the quote from the ACN web site:

ACN Communications Finland Oy has ceased to operate as a mobile provider in Finland. As a result, all ACN mobile subscriptions have been terminated, effective January 31st 2005.

In your MLM induced haze you call this a cooperative agreement with Tele Finland? You also call it business as usual!!! You call this fastrack to sell other services!!!

Rocksolid - You are like the gift that just keeps on giving. You show up to a gun fight with a rubber band and in the end, you still suffer from self inflicted wounds. Please do keep the postings coming!!!

Have Another Drink For Me!!!

P.S. Its Poncho not panda.

Originally Posted by Rocksolid

Panda

Don't bother posting again, you have been busted. Finland is not closed ACN is in a co-operation agreement to sell Tele Finland branded services. It is business as usual. This is planned to fastrack ACN selling other services in Finland.

Jvaldez, how are you going to explain to these IT colleagues you talk about, that you repeated mispresent the facts. ACN has signed 8,000 Reps alone in Australia, who are all classed as active. Where did you get the 1500 worldwide from. But hey, you do make a good spin doctor

It is amazing that people stretch the truth to suit their bias and opinions, but keep it up, it makes interesting reading.