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  #37  
Old 04-24-2012, 09:11 PM
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BoxAlarm126 BoxAlarm126 is offline
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
It is negative cashflow until the cashflow comes in...

I don't know how you can argue that.

Yes it may pay back, probably will pay back, after that degree or certification is received....but while you are in school and more cash is going out than coming in, then it is a negative cashflow for those months and years.
It's an investment. It's not expected to pay off until I reasonably expect it to. In the case of a degree, I expect it to pay off a few months after I graduate. I'll likely have taken out a loan for this education, so I'm not currently cash flow negative while I'm working on the degree. In the case of a non MLM franchise, I take out a business loan, but the income from the business covers my cost of living and the monthly loan payment. So long as the loan/business expenses get paid, and my lifestyle is supported, I'm not cash flow negative. The loan is paid back in small increments on a monthly basis, not all at once. So long as the monthly income is greater than the monthly expenses, you're not cash flow negative. Again, in the case of a college loan and also the franchise, the montly expenses are less than montly income. If not, you would be starving and homeless.

By contrast, in MLM, many do not ever become cash flow positive with the distributorship. Many more never earn even $5/hr for the time spent in the MLM. Money is spent on the MLM, but the MLM never generates sufficient income to justify the time and expense (opportunity cost).

That is how I can "argue with that."

Edit: 7% is taken from my salary every paycheck for my pension. I expect to get much more back than that in retirement. I do not consider that being cash flow negative for that investment. You know what else? My employer kicks in 33%, or more than $4 for every dollar I contribute.

Same thing for deferred comp. I defer the income until after retirement, where I receive the dividends as income. It's not a negative cash flow situation.
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"The primary product is opportunity. The strongest, most powerful motivational force today is false hope."



Last edited by BoxAlarm126 : 04-24-2012 at 09:15 PM.
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  #38  
Old 04-24-2012, 10:02 PM
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BoxAlarm126 BoxAlarm126 is offline
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
Here is an interesting page....provides the average income for various businesses. These would be ongoing businesses, mature businesses, you can't expect an income the first few years in business anywhere close to this, takes a while to build up clientelle and sales, doesn't matter whether it is MLM or conventional business.

http://smallbiztrends.com/2010/11/ho...ners-make.html

As to deferred comp.... while you've got the benefit of employer matching, you may want to take a look at Roths.....pay the taxes now...all the interest is tax free....in a regular IRA you'll get taxed on the principle and the interest when you take it out... taxes aren't likely to be any lower in 10-20 years than they are now...

I'm just an average joe....not a great salesman, no great skills, but am building a decent MLM business.....I'm average, not exceptional.
Mathematically, assuming a fixed tax rate, a Roth and a Conventional IRA work out to be the same in the end. With the Roth, you have less at the end of the period. With a conventional, you have more, but when it's taxed, it's the same amount as the Roth. So, the tiebreaker is the employer match.

As far as these businesses, if they didn't produce a positive cash flow on a month to month basis, the owner would be out of business, as well as starving and broke. I'm referring to a business investment that generates income relatively quickly. The business that fails to produce positive cash flow is akin to a college degree in a frivolous fiels that does not provide employment. Two examples would be MLM (true enough of the time to be a valid statement) and a degree in Creative Writing or Marine Biology.
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  #39  
Old 04-24-2012, 10:27 PM
calvinandhobbes calvinandhobbes is offline
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
doh.... exactly what I said. but we won't have a fixed rate between now and 10-20-30 years from now. We have the lowest rates in our lifetime and the future burden to balance the budget will require higher taxes.
And if some people have their way, they will be in the form of sales taxes which make traditional IRA's terrible choices. There are many more variables besides just income tax levels.
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  #40  
Old 04-28-2012, 08:58 PM
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
doh.... exactly what I said. but we won't have a fixed rate between now and 10-20-30 years from now. We have the lowest rates in our lifetime and the future burden to balance the budget will require higher taxes.
The Roth IRA is a ruse perpetrated on the American public by Congress. It doesn't increase your wealth; all it does is accelerate the government's tax revenue. Don't move your IRA assets to a Roth unless you are in a very low income tax bracket.

The future burden to balance the budget doesn't require higher taxes; it requires business growth, which will be retarded by higher taxes.
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  #41  
Old 04-28-2012, 09:35 PM
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BoxAlarm126 BoxAlarm126 is offline
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

This is Ric Edelman's take on the Roth vs the Traditional, which I agree with 100%:

"Say you earn $100. You pay 30% in taxes — the “water under the bridge” that you ignored. (By the way, you can change this tax rate to any rate you wish, but you can’t simply choose to ignore taxes altogether.)
This leaves you with $70 to invest. You place the money into a Roth IRA. Now, pick a rate of return and time interval. It doesn’t matter what you pick. Let’s say that, over whatever period of time you select, the account value doubles to $140.
You then withdraw the money; as you know, the withdrawal is tax-free. You therefore get to keep the entire $140. Now consider this: You again earn $100 and you choose a Deductible IRA instead of a Roth IRA. Therefore, you pay no taxes on that $100 (because your contribution is tax-deductible) and thus the full amount gets invested. It then grows at the same rate and for the same period as you selected above. Thus, as it did above, the account again doubles in value.
Therefore, you now have $200. But when you withdraw the money, taxes are due. You pay the same tax rate as you paid above (in this example, 30%). That’s $60 — leaving you with (drum roll please) $140.
As you can see, you end up with the same amount of money regardless of whether you choose the Roth IRA or the Deductible IRA. And yes, you’ll reach the same result even if you use $30,000 instead of $100, a 12% return instead of a mere doubling and a 40-year time frame instead of my unspecified one. Go ahead, try it and see.
So, the issue here is not the principle of compound interest. It’s the reality of taxes.
Sure, you can say that you’d rather pay a small tax now instead of a larger tax later — but doing so does not create greater wealth. And as a financial advisor, my job is to help you create wealth — not merely to help you pay less in taxes.
And sure, you can speculate that future tax rates will be higher — giving you justification for choosing the Roth today. But please realize that such a stance is pure speculation, for one can just as easily predict that future rates will be lower rather than higher.
Here’s the final point. If neither the Roth IRA nor the Deductible IRA is superior to the other, why did I tell the caller that the latter is, well, superior? The reason is this: I don’t trust Congress. Although the Roth offers the promise of a future tax benefit, I can’t be sure that this promise will be delivered. But the Deductible IRA offers a tax break right now. Bird in hand, so to speak. If you feel differently about Congress, you can go the other way. Just make sure you’re doing so for the right reason.
By the way, the reason we said to choose the Roth only if your current tax bracket is low is because the savings offered by the Deductible IRA in that case are so small that it’s worth the bet that the future promise will be fulfilled"
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  #42  
Old 05-01-2012, 02:54 PM
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawn... View Post
MLM is for people who don't understand math, or accounting.
And the inability to evaluate a business plan.

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  #43  
Old 05-02-2012, 11:35 AM
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
That is exactly right....the difference is we are currently paying the lowest taxes we ever have...

Odd are high the taxes will be higher when you are withdrawing than they are now....so you will be paying MORE in taxes...unless....

Unless your needs will be lower, and put you in a lower bracket...this is also likely, but since we are not taxed at the highest rate on ALL our income, only on the portion that exceeds the last increment...odds are good that most of us will benefit by Roths...
Part of the lack of tax collection is MLMer's claiming illegitimate deductions on losses suffered from participating in MLM.

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  #44  
Old 05-02-2012, 03:53 PM
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
Is that your contribution to a discussion of Roth vs Conventional Iras? That you were an illegitimate deductions?

Maybe you should have got that college degree?

Two topics to choose from and you couldn't hit either??
The topic is MLM or college degree. Sorry to disappoint you but I have a college degree.

And yes, taxpayers suffer for illegitimate deductions from MLMers.

http://www.amquix.info/amway_tax_cheaters.html

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  #45  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:00 PM
Skeptical_MLM'er Skeptical_MLM'er is offline
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
The topic is MLM or college degree. Sorry to disappoint you but I have a college degree.

And yes, taxpayers suffer for illegitimate deductions from MLMers.

http://www.amquix.info/amway_tax_cheaters.html

The info in this linkis priceless..

if i indent and change color of
text, can I pretend it is actual
email correspondence as well?

Let me try...

Dear Mr. Tax Attorney, are all of my deductions for my Amway business legal?

Dear IBO, as 1 of the most
prestigious CPA's in the world
I can personally guarantee that
every single deduction you have
claimed is legitimate... You sure
do make lots of money in your
Amway business. More than I
do with my college degree...that
I am still paying off after 15 years
....sigh.... Is there room for me
on your Team? I need to start
making real money... Please help!

That email came from one of the best Tax attorneys money can buy.

Thankfully I dont have to prove anything... according to all anti MLM bigots it is your job to disprove it...

This is great and easy....

I should have done this years ago...

Dont need to call names...

Or use ad hominims... (boxy)

I simply make my claims and they are all to be considered 100% true unles you can prove otherwise..

Remember, don't attack me or my source... do your own homework to prove what I say is not true...

God Bless us...everyone!!

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  #46  
Old 05-02-2012, 10:37 PM
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kegger430 kegger430 is offline
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

I had a comment for Skep, but I forgot we are going to stop feeding the monkey until he goes away
__________________
__________________________________________________ ____
MLMer admits it is ok to break family bonds and tear at its fabric in order to pursue "success." [Is this what you want from your business?]

CoolGrey: [Son concerned with is parents choice to join Amway] After one last heated argument with my mom, I have been kicked out for "being too negative" and "bringing so much negativity home" (just got home from college)

ChrisDoyle: I have to be honest I'm with your parents on this one.

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  #47  
Old 05-03-2012, 12:16 AM
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kegger430 View Post
I had a comment for Skep, but I forgot we are going to stop feeding the monkey until he goes away
Seriously, this is the most inane thread I've come across. Anyway who would seriously pose this question should be ignored (hint hint ;-))

Someone who thinks there is even a debate here is not even qualified to sit at the kids table. I'd put them out in the garage, with the piles of unsold XS energy drink.



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  #48  
Old 05-03-2012, 12:22 PM
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
Ah, so you chose both MLM and college degree..

Did you join an MLM before, during or after college?

Which one provided you the education to never again join an MLM? 4 years of college or one short stint in MLM.

Please compare and contrast the cost and time involved in each and the valuable education received.
You sure ask a lot of questions, especially when some of the rabid pro MLMer's on here won't even say what business they are involved in.

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  #49  
Old 05-03-2012, 12:57 PM
calvinandhobbes calvinandhobbes is offline
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeptical_MLM'er View Post
Remember, don't attack me or my source... do your own homework to prove what I say is not true...
Too many threads these days have seemed to turn into dumb and dumber.

we have "trust me it's true" versus "here's a source that says X" that doesn't actually say X.

sad.
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  #50  
Old 05-03-2012, 01:09 PM
Skeptical_MLM'er Skeptical_MLM'er is offline
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvinandhobbes View Post
Too many threads these days have seemed to turn into dumb and dumber.

we have "trust me it's true" versus "here's a source that says X" that doesn't actually say X.

sad.

Exactly!!

Should only discuss merits of the topic as opposed to conjecture

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  #51  
Old 05-03-2012, 02:19 PM
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
So the answer is...

MLM taught you something more than college did...a lot faster, and for a lot less money...

be thankful.
What I have learned is that MLM is a bad idea if you want to actually make some money.

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  #52  
Old 05-03-2012, 02:31 PM
Skeptical_MLM'er Skeptical_MLM'er is offline
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

For you
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
What I have learned is that MLM is a bad idea if you want to actually make some money.
For you maybe... I personally know hundreds who are profiting tens of thousands every month after expenses in less than 5 years in Amway

Better than 99.99% of all college grads..

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  #53  
Old 05-03-2012, 02:35 PM
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeptical_MLM'er View Post
For you

For you maybe... I personally know hundreds who are profiting tens of thousands every month after expenses in less than 5 years in Amway

Better than 99.99% of all college grads..
I've never held the claim that people do not make money in Amway. But the compensation plan and my own experience would indicate that for every one who is making money in Amway (platinum or above), there might be hundreds or thousands who make nothing or lose money. Those involved in the tool systems might be losing their shirts and homes.

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  #54  
Old 05-03-2012, 02:47 PM
Skeptical_MLM'er Skeptical_MLM'er is offline
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Re: MLM or college degree...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
I've never held the claim that people do not make money in Amway. But the compensation plan and my own experience would indicate that for every one who is making money in Amway (platinum or above), there might be hundreds or thousands who make nothing or lose money. Those involved in the tool systems might be losing their shirts and homes.
Of course, and that is what we call life...

For every person that makes money in the stock market... hundreds or thousands may be losing money

Doesnt make the Stock Market bad, just means you should at least expect a modocum of ability, training, education to increase your chances

In some MLMs, Amway for instance, that training is provided, often free of charge from upline,as well as available from accredited tool providers with decades of experience, operating in dozens of countries achieving hundreds of millions in sales/success/growth

Does everyone followit and experience the same success... of course not...

Just like every high scholl grad doesnt make it into Harvard and every Law Student does not graduate at the top of their class...

However, opportunities for income and success are available EQUALLY to al of them, THEY simply have to do what is neccessary/expected/required to attain it..

Except, in those instances, there is definitely more "subjectivity" in the success.

Take 2 H.S grads with a 4.0 Avg. Both may not receive scholarships to the same College for the same amount... why? Who knows... Too many variables

However in MLM, such as Amway, with a FIXED compensation plan, every single month an IBO is compensated exactly according to the volume moved through their organization according to the invariable plan.

Move the PV, getthe checks... period..

I like those odds...

If I dont like the odds... I dont have to join

If I dont like the work, I dont have to join..

As a grad, I have much LESS control over what happens to me then...

Just my .02


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